Re: [Doggiebox] Feature request - mute drum tracks On 11/07/2006 23:36, Michael Carlyle wrote: I see that the long-standing feature request, formerly known as "the ability to export individual drums to separate tracks" has resurfaced and has been renamed the MUTE FEATURE. If you think about it... it's a more efficient approach to be able to SELECTIVELY EXPORT, rather than MUTE. In other words, it's easier to select the drums you want, rather than all of the ones you don't. Selecting for what you want to hea
Hi Carl That's excellent - you prog-monster :) Liked this and thought it worth some comments. The best and most professional job you've done to date I think. All the instruments are mixed really well and there's a lot of atmosphere and power in there. I think you've done well with the db drums - especially the snare bass combination - that sounds to me like a real drummer and fits the other elements perfectly. I know you'll be tweaking the db on this - so to my ears the bits that need work are: The super-fast hi-hat start before the 4 slower ones and snare start. Perhaps a kind of soft rising cymbal would work well here (Fleetwood Mac, Albatross style) (keeping the 4 slower beats). I don't know how easy that is with ns-kit, but I think it would more natural feel to the rising pace of the start. I'd be tempted to put a second strike of the crash cymbal (or other crash cymbal) on the second bass drum beat in the second bar - so it fits in with the bass/guitar. ( |x------|x-x----| or something like that) I like the idea of the ride at 7:18, but for some reason it sounds a bit distracting to me. Maybe its a bit high in the mix or you need to drop a few strikes where the 'real' drummer would be hitting the snare. Or maybe a different ride sound is needed? Just some suggestions. Looking forward to hearing v2 with the other tweaked drums you have planned anyway. All the best Sion ----------------------------------------- Sion Morris Liverpool www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html -------------------------------------------
ps - I've been working on a new rock song in GB using exclusively Doggiebox for the drums. It's only a "first draft", with much of the drum part consisting of repeated basic sections except in a few places where I already had an idea about something different. My intention is to go back and bit by bit tweak things around from here. Luckily, this is really easy in Doggiebox -- it's rather harder to tweak my limited ability to sing :) Still, it's not a lot of work with Doggiebox to get a pretty decent and usable drum part for a demo: <http://www.carlaz.com/music/Words_to_the_Wind.mp3>
On 30/07/2006 08:33, Sion Morris wrote:
That's excellent - you prog-monster :)
_Well_ it's kinda 3-chord rock'n'roll with the addition of Dr. Who noises ... but we can call it prog and no one will know the difference :)
I know you'll be tweaking the db on this - so to my ears the bits that need work are: The super-fast hi-hat start before the 4 slower ones and snare start. Perhaps a kind of soft rising cymbal would work well here (Fleetwood Mac, Albatross style) (keeping the 4 slower beats). I don't know how easy that is with ns-kit, but I think it would more natural feel to the rising pace of the start.
Yeah, that skittery hat intro was actually the first thing I programmed for the song in DB (largely to play around with the range of hat samples at different velocity levels). It doesn't really quite fit with what follows, and could probably use replacing! I'm embarrassed to say I'm not familiar enough with "Albatross" to recall its intro cymbal work (though I'm sure I've heard the song various times). I think I know someone who has the "Live at the BBC" album -- I'll have to try to borrow it to check out that version, if I can. ns_kit has a pile of available cymbals with different velocities, with both sticks and mallets. I'm sure I can cook up something plausible if I can work out what it should be ....
I'd be tempted to put a second strike of the crash cymbal (or other crash cymbal) on the second bass drum beat in the second bar - so it fits in with the bass/guitar. ( |x------|x-x----| or something like that)
I'll have a go at that. Also, I want to drop in a few little fills and variations into the fairly generic "verse block" and "chorus block" that get repeated over and over at present. I've got a few rolling snare fills in obvious places (for extra melodrama :) but there's more that can be filled in here and there to make things feel a bit less mechanical.
I like the idea of the ride at 7:18, but for some reason it sounds a bit distracting to me. Maybe its a bit high in the mix or you need to drop a few strikes where the 'real' drummer would be hitting the snare. Or maybe a different ride sound is needed?
At 7:18? That's where the song ends :) though I had though that a few soft cymbal slaps at the end after the main drum part finishes would sound good. There's a bit were the ride cuts in around 4:39, 4:57, and 5:03 for a few seconds, then more constantly from around 5:09 to around 5:34. I think that's about it for the ride at present. It's a mix of ordinary hits and hits on the bell. It could easily be an issue of being too high in the mix. ns_kit7 offers _very_ loud hats and cymbals (the range of velocity options goes from "gentle tap" to "whacking the sh!t out of it"), and one doesn't _really_ need the latter end of the spectrum that much! In my dbkit for ns_kit, I've dialled the hats/cymbals back a long way, but the ride may still need to come down a touch, perhaps especially on the bell hits which cut a bit more. (I remember reading an article about drumming that advised watching good drummers to observe that even if they are manically whacking the sh!t out of the skins, you'll see the cymbals often move much less than you might expect, showing that a little bit of brass goes a long way in the mix .... But achieving this balance through gauging different samples by ear, especially when one isn't a "real drummer", has been tricky, to say the least :) Alternatively, maybe the bell hits are too strident, and I should aim to use all ordinary hits in there on the ride ....?
Looking forward to hearing v2 with the other tweaked drums you have planned anyway.
Yeah, I do like the ease of making new sections of versions of sections in DB to drop into a song and try out. It may be hard to achieve anything close to the vibe of a live drummer, but at least DB takes instructions very well and never forgets the parts :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On 4 Aug 2006, at 11:27 am, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 30/07/2006 08:33, Sion Morris wrote:
That's excellent - you prog-monster :)
_Well_ it's kinda 3-chord rock'n'roll with the addition of Dr. Who noises ... but we can call it prog and no one will know the difference :)
I know its prog in spirit! :)
I know you'll be tweaking the db on this - so to my ears the bits that need work are: The super-fast hi-hat start before the 4 slower ones and snare start. Perhaps a kind of soft rising cymbal would work well here (Fleetwood Mac, Albatross style) (keeping the 4 slower beats). I don't know how easy that is with ns-kit, but I think it would more natural feel to the rising pace of the start.
Yeah, that skittery hat intro was actually the first thing I programmed for the song in DB (largely to play around with the range of hat samples at different velocity levels). It doesn't really quite fit with what follows, and could probably use replacing!
I'm embarrassed to say I'm not familiar enough with "Albatross" to recall its intro cymbal work (though I'm sure I've heard the song various times). I think I know someone who has the "Live at the BBC" album -- I'll have to try to borrow it to check out that version, if I can.
ns_kit has a pile of available cymbals with different velocities, with both sticks and mallets. I'm sure I can cook up something plausible if I can work out what it should be ....
Yes - a soft rising cymbal with a little bit of variation should sound good - a bit like a cymbal crash played backwards, but with tiny variations.
I'd be tempted to put a second strike of the crash cymbal (or other crash cymbal) on the second bass drum beat in the second bar - so it fits in with the bass/guitar. ( |x------|x-x----| or something like that)
I'll have a go at that. Also, I want to drop in a few little fills and variations into the fairly generic "verse block" and "chorus block" that get repeated over and over at present. I've got a few rolling snare fills in obvious places (for extra melodrama :) but there's more that can be filled in here and there to make things feel a bit less mechanical.
I'd like to hear that - I think my notation is ok - just use the bass as your guide if I'm wrong! Think it will improve when you find the spot.
I like the idea of the ride at 7:18, but for some reason it sounds a bit distracting to me. Maybe its a bit high in the mix or you need to drop a few strikes where the 'real' drummer would be hitting the snare. Or maybe a different ride sound is needed?
At 7:18? That's where the song ends :) though I had though that a few soft cymbal slaps at the end after the main drum part finishes would sound good.
Tch! was looking at the wrong info on the track - but yes the bit at 4:39 is where I mean. After hearing it on headphones, I think its not too bad though and may just be a bit high in the mix as you say.
There's a bit were the ride cuts in around 4:39, 4:57, and 5:03 for a few seconds, then more constantly from around 5:09 to around 5:34. I think that's about it for the ride at present. It's a mix of ordinary hits and hits on the bell.
It could easily be an issue of being too high in the mix. ns_kit7 offers _very_ loud hats and cymbals (the range of velocity options goes from "gentle tap" to "whacking the sh!t out of it"), and one doesn't _really_ need the latter end of the spectrum that much! In my dbkit for ns_kit, I've dialled the hats/cymbals back a long way, but the ride may still need to come down a touch, perhaps especially on the bell hits which cut a bit more. (I remember reading an article about drumming that advised watching good drummers to observe that even if they are manically whacking the sh!t out of the skins, you'll see the cymbals often move much less than you might expect, showing that a little bit of brass goes a long way in the mix .... But achieving this balance through gauging different samples by ear, especially when one isn't a "real drummer", has been tricky, to say the least :)
Alternatively, maybe the bell hits are too strident, and I should aim to use all ordinary hits in there on the ride ....?
Yes I'm always reducing the brass sounds right down - sometimes exporting separately!
Looking forward to hearing v2 with the other tweaked drums you have planned anyway.
Yeah, I do like the ease of making new sections of versions of sections in DB to drop into a song and try out. It may be hard to achieve anything close to the vibe of a live drummer, but at least DB takes instructions very well and never forgets the parts :)
I think this is pretty close to being like a real drummer - for anyone not alerted to the fact it has been programmed in any case. As I said before the snare/bass combination sounds spot on especially the fast snare fills at the start. Cheers Sion PS am on holls for 2 weeks - in case you reply and don't get an answer
A quick reply ... On 04/08/2006 14:08, Sion Morris wrote:
I think this is pretty close to being like a real drummer - for anyone not alerted to the fact it has been programmed in any case. As I said before the snare/bass combination sounds spot on especially the fast snare fills at the start.
The fast snare fills are fun: they use samples of both left- and right-handed snare hits at different velocities. It's possible to get a pretty convincing sounding "snare crescendo" that way; after all, the samples genuinely reflect a drummer gradually increasing strike velocity with both hands :) The dbkit I made has 16 samples of different velocity levels for both the left and right hands on the snare. A bit tedious to set up, and a little tedious to program into the dbsong file, but once you've done a few fills/rolls of different lengths you can copy'n'paste 'em :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On 04/08/2006 14:08, Sion Morris wrote:
I know its prog in spirit! :)
True enough :)
Yes - a soft rising cymbal with a little bit of variation should sound good - a bit like a cymbal crash played backwards, but with tiny variations.
I'll have to mess with that. Could be the sort of thing where mallets would be nice; I used to love messing about with mallet-cymbal crescendos whenever I got near the drummer's kit :) Very atmospheric and dramatic. 'Course, this means I'd have to sit down and edit the dbkit to include a pile of mallet-ride samples, which might take a while. In the meantime, perhaps I'll mess with some stick-ride crescendo things ....
Tch! was looking at the wrong info on the track - but yes the bit at 4:39 is where I mean. After hearing it on headphones, I think its not too bad though and may just be a bit high in the mix as you say. [...] Yes I'm always reducing the brass sounds right down - sometimes exporting separately!
Yeah, I've been a little too lazy to export separately! :} I'm just using straight-up stereo output from DB, and trying to balance the kit to work that way. Replacing the current selection of ride-bell samples with slightly lower velocity samples might help things balance out. (Ever since I started testing this dbkit with the ns_kit7 samples back in April, I've been continuously shifting the brass towards lower velocity samples. It's been a bit weird to balance, since of course different pieces have different quiet<->loud ranges, but I want the dbkit to offer up reasonably intuitive numerically based velocity choices, such that when one selects velocity 12 of one cymbal it ought to sound about as loud as velocity 12 of another cymbal.) I oughta post an MP3 of just the drums, as output by db alone .... Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
participants (2)
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Carl Edlund Anderson -
Sion Morris