On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 11:55 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
At 13:07 10-10-03, Michael Carlyle wrote:
ps - speaking of custom kits, Mike C: do you have any notes on how you put together your ns_kit version? I figure the next best thing to a legally downloadable dbkit version of ns_kit would be a "recipe" DB users could follow so that everyone could get themselves more or less on the same page when swapping dbsong files that use such kits.
This is a good idea, although the details should really be no secret. I'll work on this later on when I get home and try to post something to the list.
I'm just going to ask about this again :) Mostly because I've messing around with kit-building and varying your version in different ways, but am interested in knowing how you went about getting there in the first place :)
Thanks for the reminder, Carl Here's a synopsis: After downloading and inspecting the zipped files from ns_kit, I realized that the makings of a very nice Doggiebox project were there, although the files seem directed more towards midi instrument users. As I recall, I was immediately reminded about the true nature of velocity variances. As you know, the volume an instrument produces is only one of several complex variables that change with the velocity of the strike. The ns_kit sounds contain many recorded samples for each instrument, each one actually struck at a gradually reduced (or increased, depending on your point of view) impact strength. The ride cymbal, toms, and kick drums, in particular, sound almost completely different than each's loudest velocity strike. Since I was aiming to create lifelike fills and add subtle, human characteristics to my patterns, it seemed like the perfect set of sounds. Step by step, here's what I did: Unpack and inspect the sounds. I used mostly Amadeus (an unregistered shareware product I sometimes play with) and Bias Peak. to do my overview and editing of the sounds. This was quite time consuming, but I wanted to listen to everything. Select the sounds I wanted to use. Rather than create a kit that contained each and every sample provided by ns_kit, I thought I'd take a representative selection that covered the entire velocity spectrum. So, instead of having say, a ride bell that ranged from 1 through 8, I chose, perhaps, 2,4,5, and 7 or whatever struck my ear as being the most useful sounds. This took time. I didn't want to leave anything important out, tonally, but I also did not want to overwhelm myself with choices when using the kit. Also, as you may already have seen, a DB kit becomes larger in direct proportion to the number and length of the sampled sounds you feed it. Edit the sounds for length and volume. After a quick test-run with a new kit using some of the ns_kit sounds, I discovered that the volume on playback was very weak as compared to a similar instrument from Ben's Kit. I decided to pump it up a bit. I used Peak to open each sound I wanted to amplify, and I determined a volume increase through trial and error. After I figured out the volume I wanted to use, I simply applied it to each successive sound file without even listening to it as a time saving measure. It worked out OK, although there remains a slight imbalance with certain instruments, to my ear. (This is why I've repeatedly chimed in about the ability to export multi-instrument files so I can mix them later). I started to realize that some sounds had a very long decay that caused the file size of the saved kit to grow rapidly. I realized that I was reaching a point of diminishing returns. Would the very long, natural decay of a ride or a crash or a snare spring rattle really add to my sound's realism? I decided that much of this would be masked in a final mix, so I began to shorten and fade to zero on a lot of the longer sounds. I was able to radically reduce the file size of the final kit in the long run. To this day, it remains annoying that I have to wait for a ride cymbal to finish ringing on a pattern in order to get on with programming. Create kit graphics. Since my employment background includes the almost daily use of applications such as Adobe's Illustrator and Photoshop, this wasn't too difficult for me. I think I decided to stick with PDF as the kit format. Organizing and deciding upon a naming convention for the files is essential in order to locate these as you're ready to apply one to a kit instrument. I used color to help me quickly identify a sound in the pattern window. I also used some bits of text to help me understand which velocity was used. Put it all together. I'm sure you know the mechanics of building a kit. It's pretty simple. I guess the key was my decision to create one instrument per collection of velocities, rather than a whole bunch of different instruments. It seemed a no-brainer to me. I chose the loudest one for the default, and named the others in such a way that their variance coincided with the velocity level of the ns_kit original sample (numbers ranging from 1 to whatever). The only tricky part was the hi-hat due to the inherent "muting" practice one must follow to get sounds to shut off when others kick in. I do have a situation where the ride cymbal gets muted by one of the hi-hats. I work around this for now. All in all, I'm fairly satisfied. I do adjust volumes and re-import individual sounds back into the kit now and then. I also want to play with the non-muted versions of the snare drum. He calls these rim-shot, but I think this might be a misnomer.
At 22:48 20-10-03, Mike Carlyle wrote:
Edit the sounds for length and volume. After a quick test-run with a new kit using some of the ns_kit sounds, I discovered that the volume on playback was very weak as compared to a similar instrument from Ben's Kit. I decided to pump it up a bit. I used Peak to open each sound I wanted to amplify, and I determined a volume increase through trial and error. After I figured out the volume I wanted to use, I simply applied it to each successive sound file without even listening to it as a time saving measure. It worked out OK, although there remains a slight imbalance with certain instruments, to my ear.
OK, I think I've noticed this, too (I'm trying to remember where ... perhaps on some of the toms? and maybe one of the cymbals?). This is one of the things that led me to wonder about what you had done to assemble the kit version. However, on my machine at least, I have to drop Doggiebox's output volume quite a bit to get WAV/AIFF files that don't have nasty peaking on them, so perhaps I should start messing around with a ns_kit version with less "volume enhanced" versions of the samples. Perhaps this sort of thing varies by machine? Though I can't think of a sensible reason why it should. Might be possible to twiddle such minor volume details using Doggiebox's kit editor volume thingy .....
(This is why I've repeatedly chimed in about the ability to export multi-instrument files so I can mix them later).
This would certainly be a useful feature, though I think I'll need a lot more mixing experience before I reach the stage where I want to mess about with this. Since I'm mixing on a external device, here's where my hoped-for MIDI support would come in handy, since then I could sync Doggiebox directly to my recording module and record different pieces of the percussion track with everything starting and stopping at the same place (instead of outputing to a WAV file and then playing that in iTunes while my recording device hums away in its corner ;) Hmmm, I have a friend with an Apple Developer Connection -- I wonder if he has some Developer literature on how Apple's MIDI support API-stuff works ....
I started to realize that some sounds had a very long decay that caused the file size of the saved kit to grow rapidly. I realized that I was reaching a point of diminishing returns. Would the very long, natural decay of a ride or a crash or a snare spring rattle really add to my sound's realism? I decided that much of this would be masked in a final mix, so I began to shorten and fade to zero on a lot of the longer sounds. I was able to radically reduce the file size of the final kit in the long run. To this day, it remains annoying that I have to wait for a ride cymbal to finish ringing on a pattern in order to get on with programming.
Though it sounds good on the final, ringing cymbal crash at the end of a track :) Leaving file-size aside, couldn't one simply hit "stop" to get on with programming? :)
Create kit graphics. Since my employment background includes the almost daily use of applications such as Adobe's Illustrator and Photoshop, this wasn't too difficult for me. I think I decided to stick with PDF as the kit format. Organizing and deciding upon a naming convention for the files is essential in order to locate these as you're ready to apply one to a kit instrument. I used color to help me quickly identify a sound in the pattern window. I also used some bits of text to help me understand which velocity was used.
Works quite well, I think. I copied and edited your icons in PhotoShop myself when messing around with adding new voices.
Put it all together. I'm sure you know the mechanics of building a kit. It's pretty simple. I guess the key was my decision to create one instrument per collection of velocities, rather than a whole bunch of different instruments. It seemed a no-brainer to me. I chose the loudest one for the default, and named the others in such a way that their variance coincided with the velocity level of the ns_kit original sample (numbers ranging from 1 to whatever).
I had been thinking about making the second-loudest the default so that, in case I wanted a special accent, I could reach for something that was (a la Spinal Tap ;) "one louder". It's really fabulous having access to a whole bunch of different velocities. You can hear the difference immediately on things like little "kick drum shuffles" with a lower velocity "grace note" precedes a full-on hit. It starts to sound noticeably more realistic than with a mono-velocity sample. I have been thinking I would increase the range of velocities available for things like the high-hat and ride, though. I haven't tried yet, but I think that perhaps even very small velocity variations would reduce the machine-feel of those kinds of sounds (more so than for the regular drums).
The only tricky part was the hi-hat due to the inherent "muting" practice one must follow to get sounds to shut off when others kick in. I do have a situation where the ride cymbal gets muted by one of the hi-hats. I work around this for now.
I noticed something like this the other day where I had a 4/4 pattern with a crash on beat 1 followed by an eighth-note ride pattern through the rest of the measure. I wanted to ad a splash on beat 2, but it sounded really wrong until I realized I still had a ride hit there too (beat 1 had the crash alone, without the ride). I suppose non-Def-Leppard, 2-handed drummer could hit the splash and ride simultaneously, but in this case everything sounded fine when I took away the ride hit on beat 2, leaving only the splash.
All in all, I'm fairly satisfied. I do adjust volumes and re-import individual sounds back into the kit now and then. I also want to play with the non-muted versions of the snare drum. He calls these rim-shot, but I think this might be a misnomer.
Yes, I downloaded the ns_kit snare WAVs, and couldn't quite figure out whether they really were what they said they were. Given the apparently limited bandwidth the ns_kit dude has, it's a shame he hasn't sanctioned a GPLish approach to using the kit. I can see a real boon to music-makers in making one or more dbkits of ns_kit available -- much as pre-compiled soundfonts are available on the ns_kit site. The ns_kit wants a GPLish license to ensure his creation remains credited and its commercial use in controlled, but so that users have a bit more flexibility. Until then, I'm thinking more about how to put together dbkit "recipes" so that Doggiebox users can assemble their own versions to work with shared dbsong files. Cheers, Carl ps - As an aside, though I'm completely broke at the moment :) I've been eyeing Sampleheads' "Mark Walker: Latin Drums" <http://www.sampleheads.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/products/rota/rota.html?L+scstore+vczm7502ff2b6b2b+1066756251>, particularly the subsection "Latin Kit A: a full Latin Kit with lots of samples and velocity switches", which can be downloaded as WAV files for only 25 bucks -- which ain't so much, really. Obviously, I couldn't legally redistribute it, but I could certainly write up a dbrecipe which others who bought the samples could then follow to put together a multi-velocity Latin dbkit on their own. -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 07:42 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
At 22:48 20-10-03, Mike Carlyle wrote:
Edit the sounds for length and volume. After a quick test-run with a new kit using some of the ns_kit sounds, I discovered that the volume on playback was very weak as compared to a similar instrument from Ben's Kit. I decided to pump it up a bit. I used Peak to open each sound I wanted to amplify, and I determined a volume increase through trial and error. After I figured out the volume I wanted to use, I simply applied it to each successive sound file without even listening to it as a time saving measure. It worked out OK, although there remains a slight imbalance with certain instruments, to my ear.
OK, I think I've noticed this, too (I'm trying to remember where ... perhaps on some of the toms? and maybe one of the cymbals?). This is one of the things that led me to wonder about what you had done to assemble the kit version.
Yes, some of the splash cymbals are a little hot. The toms are OK, but I'l like them louder overall.
However, on my machine at least, I have to drop Doggiebox's output volume quite a bit to get WAV/AIFF files that don't have nasty peaking on them, so perhaps I should start messing around with a ns_kit version with less "volume enhanced" versions of the samples. Perhaps this sort of thing varies by machine? Though I can't think of a sensible reason why it should.
Actually, I think that in my case, the drums are still soft compared to Ben's kit even though I also have to reduce the output on export.
I started to realize that some sounds had a very long decay that caused the file size of the saved kit to grow rapidly. I realized that I was reaching a point of diminishing returns. Would the very long, natural decay of a ride or a crash or a snare spring rattle really add to my sound's realism? I decided that much of this would be masked in a final mix, so I began to shorten and fade to zero on a lot of the longer sounds. I was able to radically reduce the file size of the final kit in the long run. To this day, it remains annoying that I have to wait for a ride cymbal to finish ringing on a pattern in order to get on with programming.
Though it sounds good on the final, ringing cymbal crash at the end of a track :) Leaving file-size aside, couldn't one simply hit "stop" to get on with programming? :)
You would think so, but it doesn't respond as quickly as that. I have made a habit of using the spacebar, the de facto default key for most recording applications stop/start. Frustratingly, the spacebar doesn't usually stop the ns_kit sounds from playing, although mouse clicking the "stop" button would.
Put it all together. I'm sure you know the mechanics of building a kit. It's pretty simple. I guess the key was my decision to create one instrument per collection of velocities, rather than a whole bunch of different instruments. It seemed a no-brainer to me. I chose the loudest one for the default, and named the others in such a way that their variance coincided with the velocity level of the ns_kit original sample (numbers ranging from 1 to whatever).
I had been thinking about making the second-loudest the default so that, in case I wanted a special accent, I could reach for something that was (a la Spinal Tap ;) "one louder".
This is not a bad idea. I don't know why I didn't go that way. It's easily adjusted, I suppose.
On 21 10 2003 at 5:57 pm -0400, Mike Carlyle wrote:
You would think so, but it doesn't respond as quickly as that. I have made a habit of using the spacebar, the de facto default key for most recording applications stop/start. Frustratingly, the spacebar doesn't usually stop the ns_kit sounds from playing, although mouse clicking the "stop" button would.
Can you elaborate on this Mike? Hitting spacebar should have precisely the same effect as clicking the stop button. Are you saying that you want the decay (etc) to immediately terminate when you hit stop, as opposed to finishing "in the air" like they currently do? Is this a cosmetic thing (what you hear while programming) or a functional hindrance (Doggiebox is being non-responsive)? -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
At 22:57 21-10-03, Mike Carlyle wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 07:42 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
However, on my machine at least, I have to drop Doggiebox's output volume quite a bit to get WAV/AIFF files that don't have nasty peaking on them, so perhaps I should start messing around with a ns_kit version with less "volume enhanced" versions of the samples. Perhaps this sort of thing varies by machine? Though I can't think of a sensible reason why it should.
Actually, I think that in my case, the drums are still soft compared to Ben's kit even though I also have to reduce the output on export.
I wonder if it would be possible to add some sort of "export output peak meter" feature to DB, so that keeping the export levels high without distorting at the peaks would take less guesswork? I'm not really sure what how the whole export-to-file mechanism works in terms of levels and so forth.
Leaving file-size aside, couldn't one simply hit "stop" to get on with programming? :)
You would think so, but it doesn't respond as quickly as that. I have made a habit of using the spacebar, the de facto default key for most recording applications stop/start. Frustratingly, the spacebar doesn't usually stop the ns_kit sounds from playing, although mouse clicking the "stop" button would.
You mean hitting the spacebar has a different effect from clicking the stop button? I hadn't noticed that. But maybe there's an opportunity for another preference here: whether hitting stop/spacebar lets the last initiated sample "ring" or whether it just stops everything dead? Don't know if that sort of thing is implementable .... (don't know if "implementable" is a word :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On 23 10 2003 at 6:18 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
I wonder if it would be possible to add some sort of "export output peak meter" feature to DB, so that keeping the export levels high without distorting at the peaks would take less guesswork? I'm not really sure what how the whole export-to-file mechanism works in terms of levels and so forth.
I've thought about this. The problem is that it basically requires rendering the entire song, since without doing so, one cannot guess about where the peaks will be (due to additive mixing). Now, it would be relatively easy to add a warning that would come up after export saying "sorry guy, your mixdown clipped, want to try again?". Maybe that would be helpful, but I could also see it being irritating. :) Having said this... it may be worth having a pre-flight feature that would zip through the mix (taking about the same amount of time as a full export) and then suggest what level to set for optimal gain without clipping. This could be dicey, though, because as soon as anything is tampered with (e.g. new drum added, even the tempo changed ever so slightly) the value would become stale. Another idea I have had in the back of my mind for awhile now is running another thread that would, in essence, constantly mix down the song in the background during editing. The result would be that exporting would be much faster, and level analysis like this could be done in more-or- less real time. It would probably be a noticeable performance penalty though.
another preference here: whether hitting stop/spacebar lets the last initiated sample "ring" or whether it just stops everything dead?
That is more a cosmetic issue than a practical one, and wouldn't be too difficult to implement. Would it be worth having a separate preference setting for, though, or should we just take a vote? :) -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 12:22 PM, Ben Kennedy wrote:
On 23 10 2003 at 6:18 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
I wonder if it would be possible to add some sort of "export output peak meter" feature to DB, so that keeping the export levels high without distorting at the peaks would take less guesswork? I'm not really sure what how the whole export-to-file mechanism works in terms of levels and so forth.
I've thought about this. The problem is that it basically requires rendering the entire song, since without doing so, one cannot guess about where the peaks will be (due to additive mixing).
What if a volume/level meter was built into the UI instead, which simply showed where you were at while it played, then the onus to make sure it doesn't clip is on the user. I've seen audio apps that show a notice when a clip occurs (ie. the red part of the meter says "clip" and stays red), so that it's easy for the user to see when and where it happened, then bring the volume of that one hit down a bit. Cheers, Lux
Now, it would be relatively easy to add a warning that would come up after export saying "sorry guy, your mixdown clipped, want to try again?". Maybe that would be helpful, but I could also see it being irritating. :)
Having said this... it may be worth having a pre-flight feature that would zip through the mix (taking about the same amount of time as a full export) and then suggest what level to set for optimal gain without clipping.
This could be dicey, though, because as soon as anything is tampered with (e.g. new drum added, even the tempo changed ever so slightly) the value would become stale.
Another idea I have had in the back of my mind for awhile now is running another thread that would, in essence, constantly mix down the song in the background during editing. The result would be that exporting would be much faster, and level analysis like this could be done in more-or- less real time. It would probably be a noticeable performance penalty though.
another preference here: whether hitting stop/spacebar lets the last initiated sample "ring" or whether it just stops everything dead?
That is more a cosmetic issue than a practical one, and wouldn't be too difficult to implement. Would it be worth having a separate preference setting for, though, or should we just take a vote? :)
-ben
-- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
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On 23 10 2003 at 2:22 pm -0400, John Luxford wrote:
What if a volume/level meter was built into the UI instead, which simply showed where you were at while it played, then the onus to make sure it doesn't clip is on the user.
Actually, that's a much better idea. :) I'll look into it. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
At 20:47 23-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
On 23 10 2003 at 2:22 pm -0400, John Luxford wrote:
What if a volume/level meter was built into the UI instead, which simply showed where you were at while it played, then the onus to make sure it doesn't clip is on the user.
Actually, that's a much better idea. :) I'll look into it.
Yeah, that would work :) And if it was a kind of pre-flight thing, that would be just fine, since I would have finished making changes before I planned to dump to WAV anyway, and would only need to check the peaks when everything else was ready to go. Then I could just tweak the offending hit or nudge the whole thing down a notch, or whatever :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
At 22:57 21-10-03, Mike Carlyle wrote:
At 22:48 20-10-03, Mike Carlyle wrote:
It worked out OK, although there remains a slight imbalance with certain instruments, to my ear.
OK, I think I've noticed this, too (I'm trying to remember where ... perhaps on some of the toms? and maybe one of the cymbals?). This is one of the things that led me to wonder about what you had done to assemble the kit version. Yes, some of the splash cymbals are a little hot. The toms are OK, but I'l
On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 07:42 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote: like them louder overall.
Yeah, I was just trying them out "for real", having dumped a percussion track from Doggiebox to my VS-1680, and then slapping some guitar and bass on. There was one section of several measures with just bass and drums (with lots of tom-tom action), but the toms were utterly buried by the bass, and just raising the level on the drums made the hat and snare way too forward. Surely, this is probably something where outputing different parts of the percussion to different tracks would be handy (hmm, if only I could do 8 audio channels out of my PowerBook :) so I could mix my funky tom-tom section with the toms higher, but since that's not really an option, I think I'll try just making them a touch louder and keep pretending I've got a couple of big overhead mics on the whole kit :) I thought I might also try panning the toms harder to either side of the stereo -- the bass probably belongs in the middle, so sticking the toms out further to the sides might help make them more noticeable without pumping them. It's all a bit experimental, since I have virtually no idea what I'm doing :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On 23 10 2003 at 12:47 pm -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
here was one section of several measures with just bass and drums (with lots of tom-tom action), but the toms were utterly buried by the bass, and just raising the level on the drums made the hat and snare way too forward.
So can you load the dbkit and raise the level on the toms, saving yourself the trouble of tweaking the samples in an editor?
Surely, this is probably something where outputing different parts of the percussion to different tracks would be handy
Yeah, this is definitely on the list. :)
(hmm, if only I could do 8 audio channels out of my PowerBook :)
I've been pretty happy with my MOTU 828mk2 so far... it gives you 8 outputs (well, 20 actually, if you count the ADAT and monitor channels in addition to the analog quarter-inch jacks). -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
At 17:51 23-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
On 23 10 2003 at 12:47 pm -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
there was one section of several measures with just bass and drums (with lots of tom-tom action), but the toms were utterly buried by the bass, and just raising the level on the drums made the hat and snare way too forward.
So can you load the dbkit and raise the level on the toms, saving yourself the trouble of tweaking the samples in an editor?
Exactly :) Haven't actually gotten around to doing yet, but I started asking about how Mike C. had put together the ns_kit so that I new a little about the background to the sounds I was messing with before I started changing the foreground :)
Surely, this is probably something where outputing different parts of the percussion to different tracks would be handy
Yeah, this is definitely on the list. :)
(hmm, if only I could do 8 audio channels out of my PowerBook :)
I've been pretty happy with my MOTU 828mk2 so far... it gives you 8 outputs (well, 20 actually, if you count the ADAT and monitor channels in addition to the analog quarter-inch jacks).
Hmmm, I suspect that is _well_ out of my budget, but I don't quite see how it works. I see it will take MIDI channels from the Mac via Firewire, but what about audio? Did I just miss that in the list of features :) I mean, if I somehow made 8 different drum track outputs for a song from Doggiebox, I've only got a stereo-out jack on the back of my laptop, so I certainly can't send 8 tracks through it simultaneously. Does the MOTU 828mk2 let you do that via a Firewire connection or something like that? Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On 24 10 2003 at 10:39 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
Hmmm, I suspect that is _well_ out of my budget, but I don't quite see how it works. I see it will take MIDI channels from the Mac via Firewire, but what about audio? Did I just miss that in the list of features :) I mean, if I somehow made 8 different drum track outputs for a song from Doggiebox, I've only got a stereo-out jack on the back of my laptop, so I certainly can't send 8 tracks through it simultaneously. Does the MOTU 828mk2 let you do that via a Firewire connection or something like that?
Yup... there's one firewire connection to the computer. The deck itself has 8 analog (quarter-inch) each of inputs and outputs, plus two additional Neutrik (quarter-inch/XLR dual) inputs with preamps which also provide quarter-inch sends, plus a stereo pair of quarter-inch main outputs, stereo headphone jack, plus 8 digital ADAT (on a DB-15 interface) each of inputs and outputs, plus optical stereo S/PDIF inputs and outputs. Oh yeah, plus the midi input/output, plus a footswitch jack, plus SMTPE in and out on BNC connectors, and probably more that I'm forgetting. :) Each input and output channel is discretely available to/from the computer over the firewire (so that's something like 4 dozen channels in all). As far as Doggiebox is concerned, the missing link right now of course is that you can only have a stereo output. But in concert with the configurable folddown/export groupings coming in the future will also be assignable outputs, so that it will be possible to play back a piece over e.g. 8 output channels at once. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
At 15:51 24-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
Yup... there's one firewire connection to the computer. The deck itself [does lots of far-out stuff]. Each input and output channel is discretely available to/from the computer over the firewire (so that's something like 4 dozen channels in all).
As far as Doggiebox is concerned, the missing link right now of course is that you can only have a stereo output. But in concert with the configurable folddown/export groupings coming in the future will also be assignable outputs, so that it will be possible to play back a piece over e.g. 8 output channels at once.
Very cool. I can see that would certainly be handy. My first recording experiences quite some years ago now were on 24 track ADAT, and first being baffled that the drums needed at least 8 mics, and later was impressed by how much flex that gave the mixing process.
On 24 10 2003 at 10:39 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
Hmmm, I suspect that is _well_ out of my budget,
And it _is_! ;) Over 650 quid on this side of the pond :) Does anyone know anything cheaper and dumber (like, just lets you split multiple audio channels via Firewire or USB into audio, and nothing more? :) I've got plenty of mixing power on my VS-1680, though little output power from my PowerBook (which only does Firewire through a PC card, but if I save up to get my wife one of those new iBooks .... :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On 24 10 2003 at 11:30 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
Does anyone know anything cheaper and dumber (like, just lets you split multiple audio channels via Firewire or USB into audio, and nothing more? :) I've got plenty of mixing power on my VS-1680, though little output power from my PowerBook (which only does Firewire through a PC card, but if I save up to get my wife one of those new iBooks .... :)
By far the cheapest device I've seen is the Griffin iMic... it's got a pair of stereo minijacks (one for in and one for out) and connects by USB. It's what I was using for too long before getting the "real" equipment. :) I haven't tried, but I imagine you could probably plug several of these babies into your computer if you had enough USB ports. Of course, the output quality is lesser (and input quality sucked, I kept having problems with noise and weird clipping and stuff, but I began to conclude it was crappy USB audio drivers in Mac OS X), and they only support 44.1khz at 20-bit. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
At 16:34 24-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
By far the cheapest device I've seen is the Griffin iMic... it's got a pair of stereo minijacks (one for in and one for out) and connects by USB. It's what I was using for too long before getting the "real" equipment. :) I haven't tried, but I imagine you could probably plug several of these babies into your computer if you had enough USB ports.
Eeek! But I suppose it might work :)
Of course, the output quality is lesser (and input quality sucked, I kept having problems with noise and weird clipping and stuff, but I began to conclude it was crappy USB audio drivers in Mac OS X), and they only support 44.1khz at 20-bit.
According to Griffin's website, many USB hubs suck at audio and so they've made an audio oriented audio USB hub. So I suppose I could buy their hub and 4 iMics :) though that still stacks up to something like USD 175. And it's not clear to me how I would be sure which channel was going to which iMic output :) Looks like this sort of tech requires a modestly hefty cash outlay .... I did scrounged up this relatively new thingy for FireWire: http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2003/FireWire-410-Shipping.html which looks a bit cheaper than the 828mk2 (USD 500), and does fewer things, but looks like it fits the bill for knocking a Firewire output into 8 analog line outputs. Still out of my price range, but, you know, some day ..... :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On 24 10 2003 at 11:55 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
I did scrounged up this relatively new thingy for FireWire: http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2003/FireWire-410-Shipping.html which looks a bit cheaper than the 828mk2 (USD 500), and does fewer things, but looks like it fits the bill for knocking a Firewire output into 8 analog line outputs.
True. I considered that one as well. Despite its name, though, it only affords two analog channels in, which wasn't enough for me. On the other hand, looking at it again now, I see it has two parallel headphone outputs each with separate volume -- that's cool, something I wish I had on the MOTU deck. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
At 21:26 24-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
On 24 10 2003 at 11:55 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
I did scrounged up this relatively new thingy for FireWire: http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2003/FireWire-410-Shipping.html which looks a bit cheaper than the 828mk2 (USD 500), and does fewer things, but looks like it fits the bill for knocking a Firewire output into 8 analog line outputs.
True. I considered that one as well. Despite its name, though, it only affords two analog channels in, which wasn't enough for me.
Ah, well, since I really only need audio-in on my recording device (that being my VS-1680 rather than my Mac), that wouldn't bother me. However in future, after I get more practice at mixing (and probably a new Mac with built-in Firewire rather than a PC card) and after DB supports output to multiple channels, I can see output through multiple Firewire audio channels as being very handy. Actually, I suspect I'll need a new Mac with a faster processor anyway. Though, outputing to WAV/AIFF works fine for the moment, though I notice DB on my machine sometimes "stumbles" on plain ol' playback from the app, with playback stalling for a split second or so before picking back up. Nobody else has mentioned this as a problem, so I suspect it's just my ancient Lombard processor being unable spit out the audio fast enough (especially with large samples). Ah, yes, I see a long hardware upgrade cycle stretching out into the distance before me ..... But then, in the great and glorious and as-yet-unforseeable-future, I'll record multiple channels direct from Doggiebox and sync'd to my recording module's MIDI clock :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 11:34 PM, Ben Kennedy wrote:
On 24 10 2003 at 11:30 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
Does anyone know anything cheaper and dumber (like, just lets you split multiple audio channels via Firewire or USB into audio, and nothing more? :) I've got plenty of mixing power on my VS-1680, though little output power from my PowerBook (which only does Firewire through a PC card, but if I save up to get my wife one of those new iBooks .... :)
By far the cheapest device I've seen is the Griffin iMic... it's got a pair of stereo minijacks (one for in and one for out) and connects by USB. It's what I was using for too long before getting the "real" equipment. :)
I haven't tried, but I imagine you could probably plug several of these babies into your computer if you had enough USB ports.
Of course, the output quality is lesser (and input quality sucked, I kept having problems with noise and weird clipping and stuff, but I began to conclude it was crappy USB audio drivers in Mac OS X), and they only support 44.1khz at 20-bit.
-ben
I was thinking of going this way ( getting a few iMic's to get more than a stereo input ) and have read up a bit on the subject. The problem most people seem to think will occur is that the USB bandwidth will be used up too quickly. In theory, you should be able to run 8 inputs, but the USB is very busy and you may only get slightly better than 25% use of the bandwidth - ie 2 channel and a bit more. Having extra ports apparently won't cut it, you only have 1 bus and each port just digs into this bandwidth. Your mileage may vary, but I've dropped the idea. I'm saving up for a new toy... Charlie
It's what I was using for too long before getting the "real" equipment. :)
There's been some discussion about firewire and usb audio interfaces. I
posted a question (perhaps not well phrased) about the difference in quality between using one of these interfaces versus just going from a good low-noise mixer (I use Behringer eurorack mx 602A) into the mac's line in. I want to know if this is just gear lust or what is is the real trade-off in using my low-cost input method versus plunking down for a firewire interface? Frank
On 27 10 2003 at 9:28 am -0500, Frank Rubino wrote:
There's been some discussion about firewire and usb audio interfaces. I posted a question (perhaps not well phrased) about the difference in quality between using one of these interfaces versus just going from a good low-noise mixer (I use Behringer eurorack mx 602A) into the mac's line in. I want to know if this is just gear lust or what is is the real trade-off in using my low-cost input method versus plunking down for a firewire interface?
Well mainly, the ADCs (that's analog-to-digital converters, not to be confused with Apple Developer Connection or Apple display connector) built into the Mac's sound input are crap compared to anything of more pro quality. Same with the iMic. For example, things like noise, harmonic distortion, electrical interference (some G4's are supposedly plagued with a 60 Hz induction from the PCI bus), not to mention the much lower resolution (you won't get any higher than 16 bit at 44.1 kHz from the computer). In other words, the consideration has little to do with bandwidth (the input quality between USB and firewire is 100% identical in principle since they are both digital), it's the process that turns your analog signal digital in the first place. But if you're happy with your mixer, and 16x44 stereo is sufficient and the end result is good enough to your eye/ear, then save your cash. :) -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
Carl, You could use a workaround to use the individual tracks from Doggiebox, assuming they were available soon. If you precede the first "real" measure of your song with a "count in" measure, you could strategically place one "strike" for each instrument on the same beat. Export your tracks (when the feature becomes available). Import them individually into your workstation. Use the "count in" measure to visually line up that first strike, using your ears to fine tune it. This should put all the sounds that follow into syncronization. Theoretically, I could do this today by saving a version of a song as many times as it took to have one for each mixer channel I desired. I could take the "song_snare.dbsong" and kill everything but the snare. I could take another version of the same master song called maybe "song_kick.dbson" and do the same for the kick. I could export each one, import the results into Cubase, then line them all up. To date, this has been much more trouble than it's been worth to me. As I type this, however, I find the mixing possibilites fairly intriguing and I may give it a try. If you don't have a good visual display, it might be hard. On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:30:04 +0100 Carl Edlund Anderson <cea@carlaz.com> wrote:
At 15:51 24-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
Yup... there's one firewire connection to the computer. The deck itself [does lots of far-out stuff]. Each input and output channel is discretely available to/from the computer over the firewire (so that's something like 4 dozen channels in all).
As far as Doggiebox is concerned, the missing link right now of course is that you can only have a stereo output. But in concert with the configurable folddown/export groupings coming in the future will also be assignable outputs, so that it will be possible to play back a piece over e.g. 8 output channels at once.
Very cool. I can see that would certainly be handy. My first recording experiences quite some years ago now were on 24 track ADAT, and first being baffled that the drums needed at least 8 mics, and later was impressed by how much flex that gave the mixing process.
On 24 10 2003 at 10:39 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
Hmmm, I suspect that is _well_ out of my budget,
And it _is_! ;) Over 650 quid on this side of the pond :)
Does anyone know anything cheaper and dumber (like, just lets you split multiple audio channels via Firewire or USB into audio, and nothing more? :) I've got plenty of mixing power on my VS-1680, though little output power from my PowerBook (which only does Firewire through a PC card, but if I save up to get my wife one of those new iBooks .... :)
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zygoat Doggiebox discussion list - <http://www.doggiebox.com> To unsubscribe, view archives or change your options: <http://lists.zygoat.ca/mailman/listinfo/doggiebox>
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On 21 10 2003 at 7:42 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
Hmmm, I have a friend with an Apple Developer Connection -- I wonder if he has some Developer literature on how Apple's MIDI support API-stuff works ....
Lack of documentation isn't the problem so much as available resources. Last I checked the CoreMIDI stuff seemed reasonably well documented, but I haven't been able to take a good sit down and get my head around it yet. Soon, soon.
To this day, it remains annoying that I have to wait for a ride cymbal to finish ringing on a pattern in order to get on with programming.
Though it sounds good on the final, ringing cymbal crash at the end of a track :) Leaving file-size aside, couldn't one simply hit "stop" to get on with programming? :)
I'm sorry, guys can you explain in more detail what you're referring to? For sick laughs, I imported a full song (4-minute stereo AIFF) into a dbkit as a new drum sound, then started editing a new song using that kit. Granted, things were an eensy bit sluggish due to the overhead (allocating 40-megabyte memory regions for the single drum sound), but I was able to play, stop, click to add drums, play stop click click and so on, without having to wait the four minutes for it to stop. Are you talking about something else? Now, I realise there IS still a problem where the song seems to need to play through to the end of song, or next non-empty beat, whichever comes first. (for example, create a new song; add 5 bars to it; add a drum to the first beat of first bar; play song. Doggiebox essentially hangs until the duration of the full 5 bars has elapsed.) This is legitimately a bug and I'm working on it.
Until then, I'm thinking more about how to put together dbkit "recipes" so that Doggiebox users can assemble their own versions to work with shared dbsong files.
Carl, you may have touched upon a great idea here. I wonder if we could come up with an actual "dbrecipe" mechanism, such that once prepared, the user would merely have to: 1. download the source sound files. 2. choose "cook recipe". 3. point Doggiebox to the source files and the dbrecipe file. 4. sit back while Doggiebox automagically builds the dbkit from source. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
At 05:11 23-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
Until then, I'm thinking more about how to put together dbkit "recipes" so that Doggiebox users can assemble their own versions to work with shared dbsong files.
Carl, you may have touched upon a great idea here. I wonder if we could come up with an actual "dbrecipe" mechanism, such that once prepared, the user would merely have to: 1. download the source sound files. 2. choose "cook recipe". 3. point Doggiebox to the source files and the dbrecipe file. 4. sit back while Doggiebox automagically builds the dbkit from source.
Wow, that's rather more cunning that what I had been thinking of -- and it would be very cool. As as long as the source files (both sounds and images) and kit configuration info were available, an auto-building dbrecipe would be very handy for situations where user-redistributed source files or fully compiled dbskits are impractible (i.e. commercially-purchased or other copyright-restricted sample libraries). (Naturally, in the glorious future, vendors will simply offer pre-compiled dbkits as they currently do with soundfonts :) but until then ..... :) The primary stumbling block I see if how to handle edits to the source sound files -- like, for the ns_dbkit Mike C. adjusted the volume of all the files, and for my version I duplicated and then pitch-shifted a subset of the source sound files. Theoretically, I suppose one could easily specify configuration info like "take blah-blah files and boost their volume by X much, then take yadda-yadda files and shift their pitch by Y much". But surely in order to actually process such instructions automatically, either Doggiebox would need to call some specified third party app (i.e. Peak) and send the appropriate commands to have the edits performed ... or it would need built-in capability to perform such edits itself. I don't know enough about Apple's Audio Unit technology to guess how hard it would be to start throwing "effect" capabilities like gain boosts and pitch shifts into Doggiebox .... but I suppose if it were possible, that might open the door to all kinds of funky AU stuff inside Doggiebox (i.e. slap a reverb on your snare track, flange the toms, all within DB). Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
participants (7)
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Ben Kennedy -
Carl Edlund Anderson -
Charlie Needle -
Frank Rubino -
John Luxford -
Michael Carlyle -
Mike Carlyle