Hey all, With no further ado, here are the several long-awaited improvements to beat editing now in build 1E9 which is downloadable for your pleasure at <http://www.doggiebox.com/distribution/Doggiebox-1E9.tbz> : * A new floating inspector window replaces the old options sheet for specifying time signature and tempo. Choosing "Tempo/Time Signature..." from the Song menu or "Song Inspector" from the Window menu will make it appear. In the next build, its state should be remembered for automatic showing/hiding. * New behaviour for Cut and Paste: these operations now apply to the instruments laid down within beats only; the physical song structure will remain unaffected. Thanks to everyone who has weighed in on this design/UI issue recently; this reflects what seemed to be the best consensus on how beat-level editing should work. Now it is possible to move instruments and rhythms around, within and across bars, without regard for disrupting the song structure. Currently when you paste, the resultant patterns will be dropped in over top of whatever is currently there (beginning at the insertion point or the start of the selected region if there is one), resulting in an additive effect. In the next build, the behaviour will be changed to overwrite (replace all drums in) the target region by default, but with an additional "Paste Over" command to achieve this additive effect if desired. * New commands Insert Bar, Insert Beat and Delete Beat(s)/Bar(s) for manipulating the song structure. These are accessible from both the Song menu as well as buttons in the inspector. Beats may be added and deleted with respect to the time signature of the bar; e.g. inserting a beat into a 6|8 will turn it into a 7|8. Only whole beats may be deleted; e.g. in a 4|4 bar if you have an eighth-note region selected, the operation will actually take out the full quarter-note beat into which the eighth-note falls. To delete an entire bar, select all of its beats. Adjusting the time signature using the stepper arrows in the inspector will preserve the duration and geometry of the bar. This makes it possible to e.g. overlay a 3-beat rhythm onto a 4|4 bar by temporarily switching the time signature to 3|4. * Zooming now only affects the selected bars (or the one nearest the insertion point). To zoom everything at once, first do a Select All. I think this default behaviour is a little more helpful. * Drag-selection of beats is now possible when the mouse is in either the "i-beam" or "triangle" cursor mode. Holding the option key will select whole bars. Support for discontiguous beat selection (i.e. command-click with "triangle" cursor) has been temporarily disabled. * Fixed a potential crash that could occur after deleting drums from a bar, and various other bug fixes. I'm interested in any and all feedback on the changes in this build, particularly insofar as the wisdom and usability of the new editing capabilities, inspector palette, keyboard shortcuts, etc. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
Ben Looks good after the first 5 minutes play... A minor point, if you open a song and then open the Song inspector, the focus is on the song inspector rather than back in the song window, consequently, if you hit the space bar (intending to play the song), you either get a new beat in the bar you were last in, delete the beats per minute indicator or add a bar ( it seems random what it actually does, but I haven't done too much looking) Its a bit confusing (you can always use the MS line, it's a feature, not a bug). It's past my bed time now, so I'll have another play later tomorrow Cheers Charlie On 26/04/2005, at 5:20 AM, Ben Kennedy wrote:
Hey all,
With no further ado, here are the several long-awaited improvements to beat editing now in build 1E9 which is downloadable for your pleasure at <http://www.doggiebox.com/distribution/Doggiebox-1E9.tbz> :
* A new floating inspector window replaces the old options sheet for specifying time signature and tempo.
Choosing "Tempo/Time Signature..." from the Song menu or "Song Inspector" from the Window menu will make it appear. In the next build, its state should be remembered for automatic showing/hiding.
* New behaviour for Cut and Paste: these operations now apply to the instruments laid down within beats only; the physical song structure will remain unaffected.
Thanks to everyone who has weighed in on this design/UI issue recently; this reflects what seemed to be the best consensus on how beat-level editing should work. Now it is possible to move instruments and rhythms around, within and across bars, without regard for disrupting the song structure.
Currently when you paste, the resultant patterns will be dropped in over top of whatever is currently there (beginning at the insertion point or the start of the selected region if there is one), resulting in an additive effect. In the next build, the behaviour will be changed to overwrite (replace all drums in) the target region by default, but with an additional "Paste Over" command to achieve this additive effect if desired.
* New commands Insert Bar, Insert Beat and Delete Beat(s)/Bar(s) for manipulating the song structure.
These are accessible from both the Song menu as well as buttons in the inspector. Beats may be added and deleted with respect to the time signature of the bar; e.g. inserting a beat into a 6|8 will turn it into a 7|8. Only whole beats may be deleted; e.g. in a 4|4 bar if you have an eighth-note region selected, the operation will actually take out the full quarter-note beat into which the eighth-note falls. To delete an entire bar, select all of its beats.
Adjusting the time signature using the stepper arrows in the inspector will preserve the duration and geometry of the bar. This makes it possible to e.g. overlay a 3-beat rhythm onto a 4|4 bar by temporarily switching the time signature to 3|4.
* Zooming now only affects the selected bars (or the one nearest the insertion point). To zoom everything at once, first do a Select All. I think this default behaviour is a little more helpful.
* Drag-selection of beats is now possible when the mouse is in either the "i-beam" or "triangle" cursor mode. Holding the option key will select whole bars. Support for discontiguous beat selection (i.e. command-click with "triangle" cursor) has been temporarily disabled.
* Fixed a potential crash that could occur after deleting drums from a bar, and various other bug fixes.
I'm interested in any and all feedback on the changes in this build, particularly insofar as the wisdom and usability of the new editing capabilities, inspector palette, keyboard shortcuts, etc.
-ben
-- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Zygoat Doggiebox discussion list - <http://www.doggiebox.com> To unsubscribe, view archives or change your options: <http://lists.zygoat.ca/mailman/listinfo/doggiebox>
Hi, is there a way to insert more than one bar at a time? The help section was not of much use, but i assume it will be updated when the 1.3 is released. -Haakon
Charlie wrote at 9:47 pm (+0800) on Tue 26 Apr 2005:
A minor point, if you open a song and then open the Song inspector, the focus is on the song inspector rather than back in the song window,
Good point, that's mildly irritating isn't it. Now fixed for next build. Håkon Pettersen wrote at 3:59 pm (+0200) on Wed 27 Apr 2005:
Hi, is there a way to insert more than one bar at a time?
Not any more... I had kind of forgotten that that was an option previously. For a small number of bars (like say half a dozen or fewer), hitting the command repeatedly seems easy enough. But I can see how this would be cumbesome for creating a large number of bars at once. Would a secondary command be useful to people, e.g. option-click on the button to raise a dialog allowing you to specify number of bars?
The help section was not of much use, but i assume it will be updated when the 1.3 is released.
Yep, I haven't touched it at all; I'll bring the docs up to date once the app has settled down a bit. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
På 27. apr. 2005 kl. 18.33 skrev Ben Kennedy:
Would a secondary command be useful to people, e.g. option-click on the button to raise a dialog allowing you to specify number of bars?
that'd be nice yes:) I found more "issues" now when trying to make my first song with 1E9: -when inserting for instance seven bars of 6/8 the speed varies from 60 to 8 dotted quarterbpm. -can't copy bars - that would be useful if my song has an AABA type form, and the A-part has complex beat/bar structure. -the "word input" mouse pointer does not switch to conventional point when moved over to the inspector to change things, makes it a bit troublesome to target the small arrows -The arrow top nudge speed up in the song inspector isn't working all the time, I can't figure out when it is og isn't -one cant change the note duration by which one is to adjust speed according to. That means that you will need some more than basic mathskills in some situations. I haven't :p hope it helps, Ben ps. by the way, all of these issues i found in a brand new project with no drums in it. Haakon
Håkon Pettersen wrote at 7:48 pm (+0200) on Wed 27 Apr 2005:
I found more "issues" now when trying to make my first song with 1E9: -when inserting for instance seven bars of 6/8 the speed varies from 60 to 8 dotted quarterbpm.
Weird, I see what you mean. Will fix.
-can't copy bars - that would be useful if my song has an AABA type form, and the A-part has complex beat/bar structure.
Well, what you can do currently is insert empty bars, then copy the entirety of the first "A" part, and paste a couple of times into the other destination bars. I realise however that this involves more steps than it used to. Unfortunately we have a usability conflict now, thanks to the new division between manipulating "song structure" vs. "the notes in the song". Does anyone have suggestions on how to best address this? Conceivably, a third command pair for "cut bars and notes" and "paste bars and notes" could achieve this, but then we embark on dangerously confusing the UI. Hmmm.
-the "word input" mouse pointer does not switch to conventional point when moved over to the inspector to change things, makes it a bit troublesome to target the small arrows
Good point (if the inspector happens to be over top of the song window), I'll fix this.
-The arrow top nudge speed up in the song inspector isn't working all the time, I can't figure out when it is og isn't
I see that too... not sure why... will look into it.
-one cant change the note duration by which one is to adjust speed according to. That means that you will need some more than basic mathskills in some situations. I haven't :p
:) That's true, this is another departure from previous versions. Now, the tempo-basis is determined automatically according to the time signature (e.g. for a 4-based bar, it's quarter-note = bpm; for a 5|8 bar it's eighth-note = bpm while for a 6|8 bar it's dotted quarter). This is in line with conventional musical practice, and I thought that by providing this automatically (vs. the pop-up selector we used to have) it would simplify the UI. How would you prefer this be changed? One idea that occurs to me is that I could create a new preference for "display compound time conventionally" or something, such that when turned on, will give this current behaviour (e.g. 6|8 shown as two beats with dotted-quarter basis). Turning it off would give simplified behaviour (e.g. 6|8 shown as 6 beats with eighth-note basis). Thoughts?
hope it helps, Ben
Definitely, all of this is very helpful... thank you Håkon! -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
I haven't touched the inspector window yet, but as long as I can still change time signature inside a song (Switching back and forth between 4/4 and 3/4 every other bar, for instance), it should be fine. I'm pleased with the other improvements so far. I would like to request that a velocity slider be added to the main window. Currently you can change the velocity of a note by right-clicking it and adjusting the slider that pops up. I would like to see a slider in the main window that sets the velocity of new notes as they are created. Ben Kennedy wrote:
Hey all,
With no further ado, here are the several long-awaited improvements to beat editing now in build 1E9 which is downloadable for your pleasure at <http://www.doggiebox.com/distribution/Doggiebox-1E9.tbz> :
* A new floating inspector window replaces the old options sheet for specifying time signature and tempo.
Choosing "Tempo/Time Signature..." from the Song menu or "Song Inspector" from the Window menu will make it appear. In the next build, its state should be remembered for automatic showing/hiding.
* New behaviour for Cut and Paste: these operations now apply to the instruments laid down within beats only; the physical song structure will remain unaffected.
Thanks to everyone who has weighed in on this design/UI issue recently; this reflects what seemed to be the best consensus on how beat-level editing should work. Now it is possible to move instruments and rhythms around, within and across bars, without regard for disrupting the song structure.
Currently when you paste, the resultant patterns will be dropped in over top of whatever is currently there (beginning at the insertion point or the start of the selected region if there is one), resulting in an additive effect. In the next build, the behaviour will be changed to overwrite (replace all drums in) the target region by default, but with an additional "Paste Over" command to achieve this additive effect if desired.
* New commands Insert Bar, Insert Beat and Delete Beat(s)/Bar(s) for manipulating the song structure.
These are accessible from both the Song menu as well as buttons in the inspector. Beats may be added and deleted with respect to the time signature of the bar; e.g. inserting a beat into a 6|8 will turn it into a 7|8. Only whole beats may be deleted; e.g. in a 4|4 bar if you have an eighth-note region selected, the operation will actually take out the full quarter-note beat into which the eighth-note falls. To delete an entire bar, select all of its beats.
Adjusting the time signature using the stepper arrows in the inspector will preserve the duration and geometry of the bar. This makes it possible to e.g. overlay a 3-beat rhythm onto a 4|4 bar by temporarily switching the time signature to 3|4.
* Zooming now only affects the selected bars (or the one nearest the insertion point). To zoom everything at once, first do a Select All. I think this default behaviour is a little more helpful.
* Drag-selection of beats is now possible when the mouse is in either the "i-beam" or "triangle" cursor mode. Holding the option key will select whole bars. Support for discontiguous beat selection (i.e. command-click with "triangle" cursor) has been temporarily disabled.
* Fixed a potential crash that could occur after deleting drums from a bar, and various other bug fixes.
I'm interested in any and all feedback on the changes in this build, particularly insofar as the wisdom and usability of the new editing capabilities, inspector palette, keyboard shortcuts, etc.
-ben
Man, I'm so bummed I haven't had a chance to take the new DB for a spin yet -- but this coming weekend is a 3-day in the UK, so I think I should get the chance then :) Meanwhile, I have to ask: Ben, have you had a Devel copy of Tiger to play with and see if DB works on it? I don't know much about it, but have heard there are some Quicktime architecture changes in Tiger and I wondered if DB used any underlying audio stuff that might have been moved around in Tiger ....? On 27/04/2005 18:24, Sage wrote:
I would like to request that a velocity slider be added to the main window. Currently you can change the velocity of a note by right-clicking it and adjusting the slider that pops up. I would like to see a slider in the main window that sets the velocity of new notes as they are created.
Does this slider feature currently adjust the _volume_ of the given sample, or is it already clever enough to know that a given "drum" might have multple samples at multiple velocities and can figure out and reset the sample to use by ... hmm, like checking the MIDI velocity setting as configured in the kit editor? Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 27/04/2005 18:24, Sage wrote:
I would like to request that a velocity slider be added to the main window. Currently you can change the velocity of a note by right-clicking it and adjusting the slider that pops up. I would like to see a slider in the main window that sets the velocity of new notes as they are created.
Does this slider feature currently adjust the _volume_ of the given sample, or is it already clever enough to know that a given "drum" might have multple samples at multiple velocities and can figure out and reset the sample to use by ... hmm, like checking the MIDI velocity setting as configured in the kit editor?
Hm. That's a good question, and I'm afraid I don't know the answer. You see, I usually run a standalone VSTi host (like The Ugly VSTi Host or HostX), load Drumkit From Hell Superior into that, and simply pipe DoggieBox's midi output to it. So my sounds are entirely generated by DFHS -- the DoggieBox drumkit file that I've created doesn't have any actual sounds associated with it, just midi notes. The velocity setting works very well in this regard, but I don't know if it affects samples built into DB drumkits.
Carl Edlund Anderson wrote at 12:04 pm (+0100) on Thu 28 Apr 2005:
Meanwhile, I have to ask: Ben, have you had a Devel copy of Tiger to play with and see if DB works on it? I don't know much about it, but have heard there are some Quicktime architecture changes in Tiger and I wondered if DB used any underlying audio stuff that might have been moved around in Tiger ....?
Yep. I admittedly have not done massively rigorous testing, but casual use works fine with no problems or differences noted. I will run it through some more paces this afternoon though just to be sure. (Despite my earlier intentions I've stuck with 10.3 for most of my dev, not planning to switch everything over until Tiger's officially out of the gate.) The most recent build Apple released to developers is was a couple of months ago, though. Apple have dropped the ball on the Tiger process unfortunately... they're apparently not even mailing out the final release until after tomorrow, meaning that retail customers get their copies before developers do. We all learned about the release date via rumour sites, too. Bit of a disappointment. But this is an aside. :) I expect that my experiences with the recent seed are indicative of what to expect (no problems) with the release 10.4.0.
Does this slider feature currently adjust the _volume_ of the given sample, or is it already clever enough to know that a given "drum" might have multple samples at multiple velocities
The cleverness is not here yet; it only adjusts the volume level. Eventually... :) -b -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
On 28/04/2005 17:05, Ben Kennedy wrote:
Carl Edlund Anderson wrote at 12:04 pm (+0100) on Thu 28 Apr 2005:
Meanwhile, I have to ask: Ben, have you had a Devel copy of Tiger to play with and see if DB works on it?
Yep. I admittedly have not done massively rigorous testing, but casual use works fine with no problems or differences noted.
Cool :) I might install Tiger soonish, but wanted to be pretty sure I wasn't going put DB out of action!
Does this slider feature currently adjust the _volume_ of the given sample, or is it already clever enough to know that a given "drum" might have multple samples at multiple velocities
The cleverness is not here yet; it only adjusts the volume level. Eventually... :)
Well, I thought I would ask :) Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
Ben Kennedy wrote:
Carl Edlund Anderson wrote at 12:04 pm (+0100) on Thu 28 Apr 2005:
Meanwhile, I have to ask: Ben, have you had a Devel copy of Tiger to play with and see if DB works on it? I don't know much about it, but have heard there are some Quicktime architecture changes in Tiger and I wondered if DB used any underlying audio stuff that might have been moved around in Tiger ....?
Yep. I admittedly have not done massively rigorous testing, but casual use works fine with no problems or differences noted. I will run it through some more paces this afternoon though just to be sure. (Despite my earlier intentions I've stuck with 10.3 for most of my dev, not planning to switch everything over until Tiger's officially out of the gate.)
Out of curiosity, is Doggiebox a Carbon or Cocoa app? Does it use QuickDraw or Quartz 2D to draw to the screen?
Sage wrote at 9:21 am (-0500) on Mon 02 May 2005:
Out of curiosity, is Doggiebox a Carbon or Cocoa app? Does it use QuickDraw or Quartz 2D to draw to the screen?
It's a fully-Cocoa app, using Cocoa and CoreGraphics drawing routines. You're hankering for the Q2D Extreme speedup that Ars benchmarked, aren't you. ;) I should mention that even in the current builds, there is still a lot of room for optimization in view drawing methods, particularly to use new API that were introduced in 10.3. If anyone is using DB on a particularly slow machine and can document particular sluggishness, feel free to let me know so I can prioritize some optimization. (I used to test on a 500 Mhz iBook but I gave that one away to my brother last Christmas... my slowest machine now is my dual 867 G4, which I do most of my work on, which still happens to feel faster than my brand-new 1.5 GHz Powerbook.) -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
Ben Kennedy wrote:
You're hankering for the Q2D Extreme speedup that Ars benchmarked, aren't you. ;)
Hee! You're on to me. :D I actually have been looking forward to this since before I switched to the Mac platform. I bought my 1.67 Powerbook back in February and had the VRAM maxed to 128 MB specifically in anticipation of Tiger.
If anyone is using DB on a particularly slow machine and can document particular sluggishness, feel free to let me know so I can prioritize some optimization.
I don't notice any sluggishness in operation, but even on my 1.67 Powerbook w/ 2 GB RAM, Doggiebox is definitely slow to launch, even with the splash screen turned off. I doubt that's a screen drawing issue, though...
(I used to test on a 500 Mhz iBook but I gave that one away to my brother last Christmas... my slowest machine now is my dual 867 G4, which I do most of my work on, which still happens to feel faster than my brand-new 1.5 GHz Powerbook.)
I find that hard drives are the real bottleneck in most modern systems. Your dual G4 likely has a 7200 rpm disk, and the Powerbook only a 5400 rpm disk, so the dual G4 probably feels a little snappier. Adding RAM to the PB may help by reducing disk caching.
Sage wrote at 12:24 pm (-0500) on Wed 27 Apr 2005:
I would like to request that a velocity slider be added to the main window. Currently you can change the velocity of a note by right-clicking it and adjusting the slider that pops up. I would like to see a slider in the main window that sets the velocity of new notes as they are created.
Good idea -- I'll think about this and try to get something going on for the next build. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca
participants (5)
-
Ben Kennedy -
Carl Edlund Anderson -
Charlie -
Håkon Pettersen -
Sage