That's great news - Can I put a request in for some tambourine sounds - do you remember me saying before about single left and right movements so that a shake can be sync'd with the beat? Looking forward very much to the kit. Cheers Sion Morris www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html
i'm hoping to get to a version III Ludwig kit sometime in march. i have some time off coming up, new heads, a really nice new bosphorus flat jazz ride, and a new mixer with nicer pre-amps. i'll definitely try to be a little more methodical with this one and get a variety of sound levels for each instrument on the kit. also, i'm thinking of doing the rudiments on the snare at a variety of levels as well.
sure. i'll try to remember this time... ;-) i also, have a couple different shakers i'll try to get down while i'm at it. On Mar 2, 2005, at 1:13 AM, Sion Morris wrote:
That's great news - Can I put a request in for some tambourine sounds - do you remember me saying before about single left and right movements so that a shake can be sync'd with the beat?
Looking forward very much to the kit.
Cheers
Sion Morris www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html
i'm hoping to get to a version III Ludwig kit sometime in march. i have some time off coming up, new heads, a really nice new bosphorus flat jazz ride, and a new mixer with nicer pre-amps. i'll definitely try to be a little more methodical with this one and get a variety of sound levels for each instrument on the kit. also, i'm thinking of doing the rudiments on the snare at a variety of levels as well.
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On 04 Mar 2005, at 02:53, David Holloway wrote:
sure. i'll try to remember this time... ;-) i also, have a couple different shakers i'll try to get down while i'm at it.
My only other suggestion is purely UI :) A lot of the variants in the Ludwig v2 kit share the same icon (AFAICT), which I at least find confusing in pattern editor. I started tweaking some of the icons for sounds I had tried using in various songs so I could tell them apart, but some regular means of distinguishing the sounds visually would be useful, I think. Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
what visual cues are you using for your tweaked icons? i'm not a big fan of changing color for the variations. i prefer more iconic tweaks in black and white. hmmm... i think i have a musical notation book around here somewhere. maybe that'll help. d. On Mar 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 04 Mar 2005, at 02:53, David Holloway wrote:
sure. i'll try to remember this time... ;-) i also, have a couple different shakers i'll try to get down while i'm at it.
My only other suggestion is purely UI :) A lot of the variants in the Ludwig v2 kit share the same icon (AFAICT), which I at least find confusing in pattern editor. I started tweaking some of the icons for sounds I had tried using in various songs so I could tell them apart, but some regular means of distinguishing the sounds visually would be useful, I think.
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
Funny. I had the same thought as Carl and started making my own colorized versions of your icons. Are you against color from an aesthetic point of view? Functionally, I think color is very important. On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:39 PM, David Holloway wrote:
what visual cues are you using for your tweaked icons? i'm not a big fan of changing color for the variations. i prefer more iconic tweaks in black and white. hmmm... i think i have a musical notation book around here somewhere. maybe that'll help.
d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 04 Mar 2005, at 02:53, David Holloway wrote:
sure. i'll try to remember this time... ;-) i also, have a couple different shakers i'll try to get down while i'm at it.
My only other suggestion is purely UI :) A lot of the variants in the Ludwig v2 kit share the same icon (AFAICT), which I at least find confusing in pattern editor. I started tweaking some of the icons for sounds I had tried using in various songs so I could tell them apart, but some regular means of distinguishing the sounds visually would be useful, I think.
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
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On 09-Mar-2005 01:36, Mike Carlyle wrote:
On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:39 PM, David Holloway wrote:
On Mar 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
My only other suggestion is purely UI :) A lot of the variants in the Ludwig v2 kit share the same icon (AFAICT), which I at least find confusing in pattern editor. I started tweaking some of the icons for sounds I had tried using in various songs so I could tell them apart, but some regular means of distinguishing the sounds visually would be useful, I think.
what visual cues are you using for your tweaked icons? i'm not a big fan of changing color for the variations. i prefer more iconic tweaks in black and white.
Funny. I had the same thought as Carl and started making my own colorized versions of your icons. Are you against color from an aesthetic point of view? Functionally, I think color is very important.
Actually, though I've taken happily cues for Mike Carlyle on use of color and such in my ns_kit dbkit muckings-about, I figured the Lugwig kit was purposely avoiding color, and so I tried doing things like changing the size of the graphic in the drum icon or adding "diacritical marks" (like a "circumflex" over accented hits) to indicate whether something was ghost, accented, whatever. (I also tried changing things to, like greyscale, for ghost hits, but maybe that was getting too close to using color :) I didn't do a lot of icon editing, since I plenty of icon editing opportunities for my taste in editing my ns_kit dbkit :) and I figured a new version of the Ludwig kit would pop out eventually anyway. Still, being able to visually identify the use of a given sample in the DB pattern editor seems pretty uiseful to me. Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
my preference towards black & white is more from the point of view of (a) keeping the doggiebox notation consistent with my hand written notation and (b) trying to keep in the spirit of the traditional drum/musical notation. i read drum notation from magazines, music books, sheet music, etc. so it helps when i'm reading and playing to not have to adjust to different glyphs, remember color codes, etc. i just dug up my book "Guide To Standardized Drumset Notation" by norman weinberg. i'll see what i can adapt from it... cheers, d. On Mar 8, 2005, at 5:36 PM, Mike Carlyle wrote:
Funny. I had the same thought as Carl and started making my own colorized versions of your icons. Are you against color from an aesthetic point of view? Functionally, I think color is very important.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:39 PM, David Holloway wrote:
what visual cues are you using for your tweaked icons? i'm not a big fan of changing color for the variations. i prefer more iconic tweaks in black and white. hmmm... i think i have a musical notation book around here somewhere. maybe that'll help.
d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 04 Mar 2005, at 02:53, David Holloway wrote:
sure. i'll try to remember this time... ;-) i also, have a couple different shakers i'll try to get down while i'm at it.
My only other suggestion is purely UI :) A lot of the variants in the Ludwig v2 kit share the same icon (AFAICT), which I at least find confusing in pattern editor. I started tweaking some of the icons for sounds I had tried using in various songs so I could tell them apart, but some regular means of distinguishing the sounds visually would be useful, I think.
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
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Ooh no... I think colour is a really helpful asset when interpreting a pattern. In most of the the kits I have assembled, I found colour to be the most natural indicator of differences between sounds - Sometimes I use just solid blocks of different colours to represent each instrument. I think that we are so programmed too differentiate colour above shape that any use of colour in icons is a vastimprovement a valuable aid to seeing patterns more easily. Also am I right that colour preception is closer in the brain to sound perception - and in the creative part, unlike shape perception, which is in the thinking bit? This is me speaking as a non-drummer, graphic designer, non-drummer - but I can understand how it would be useful for a drummer familiar with notation to have consistent b/w icons though. Anyone fancy trying the solid blocks idea/experiment - I'd be interested to hear what you think Sion Morris Liverpool www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html On 10 Mar 2005, at 1:12 am, David Holloway wrote:
my preference towards black & white is more from the point of view of (a) keeping the doggiebox notation consistent with my hand written notation and (b) trying to keep in the spirit of the traditional drum/musical notation.
i read drum notation from magazines, music books, sheet music, etc. so it helps when i'm reading and playing to not have to adjust to different glyphs, remember color codes, etc.
i just dug up my book "Guide To Standardized Drumset Notation" by norman weinberg. i'll see what i can adapt from it...
cheers, d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 5:36 PM, Mike Carlyle wrote:
Funny. I had the same thought as Carl and started making my own colorized versions of your icons. Are you against color from an aesthetic point of view? Functionally, I think color is very important.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:39 PM, David Holloway wrote:
what visual cues are you using for your tweaked icons? i'm not a big fan of changing color for the variations. i prefer more iconic tweaks in black and white. hmmm... i think i have a musical notation book around here somewhere. maybe that'll help.
d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 04 Mar 2005, at 02:53, David Holloway wrote:
sure. i'll try to remember this time... ;-) i also, have a couple different shakers i'll try to get down while i'm at it.
My only other suggestion is purely UI :) A lot of the variants in the Ludwig v2 kit share the same icon (AFAICT), which I at least find confusing in pattern editor. I started tweaking some of the icons for sounds I had tried using in various songs so I could tell them apart, but some regular means of distinguishing the sounds visually would be useful, I think.
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
On 10-Mar-2005 12:31, Sion Morris wrote:
Ooh no... I think colour is a really helpful asset when interpreting a pattern. In most of the the kits I have assembled, I found colour to be the most natural indicator of differences between sounds - Sometimes I use just solid blocks of different colours to represent each instrument.
In the limited DB icon work I've done, I've tried to give at least a slightly different color to each drum/cymbal/thingy. In the ns_kit dbkit I've been messing around on, I've taken off on Mike C's icons, using letters and numbers to help me out with iDing relative velocities and sometimes other markings to distinguish special hits -- e.g. a snare is a beige disc, a rim shot is a beige disc in a brown ring, a press/buzz roll is a beige disc with a wavy black line beneath the hand ID letter (L or R) and velocity number. I'm still screwing around with icon design, panning, and all that, so I haven't done a finished dbkit with links for all ns_kit7free samples with MIDI info included (my idea being you can then cut it down to whatever size/complexity you like by just deleting drum instances you don't want), so I haven't uploaded it, but the .dbkit is actually sitting in my web space if anyone wants to peek at it: <http://www.carlaz.com/music/Carls_nskit7.dbkit>. In addition to the ns_kit7free samples, it links to the GarageBand cowbells ('cause I gotta have more cowbell! :) As for the Ludwig kit, one could always make a custom version with all new icons if one really wanted. Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
there's no reason not to have it both ways. i think it should be pretty easy for me to offer colorized versions of the icons. i use adobe illustrator to do my icons so it should be pretty easy to color things up a little. and if i run out of time i'd be happy to send out a copy of the illustrator document and people can tweak and color to their heart's content. cheers, david. On Mar 10, 2005, at 4:31 AM, Sion Morris wrote:
Ooh no... I think colour is a really helpful asset when interpreting a pattern. In most of the the kits I have assembled, I found colour to be the most natural indicator of differences between sounds - Sometimes I use just solid blocks of different colours to represent each instrument. I think that we are so programmed too differentiate colour above shape that any use of colour in icons is a vastimprovement a valuable aid to seeing patterns more easily. Also am I right that colour preception is closer in the brain to sound perception - and in the creative part, unlike shape perception, which is in the thinking bit?
This is me speaking as a non-drummer, graphic designer, non-drummer - but I can understand how it would be useful for a drummer familiar with notation to have consistent b/w icons though.
Anyone fancy trying the solid blocks idea/experiment - I'd be interested to hear what you think
Sion Morris Liverpool
www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html
On 10 Mar 2005, at 1:12 am, David Holloway wrote:
my preference towards black & white is more from the point of view of (a) keeping the doggiebox notation consistent with my hand written notation and (b) trying to keep in the spirit of the traditional drum/musical notation.
i read drum notation from magazines, music books, sheet music, etc. so it helps when i'm reading and playing to not have to adjust to different glyphs, remember color codes, etc.
i just dug up my book "Guide To Standardized Drumset Notation" by norman weinberg. i'll see what i can adapt from it...
cheers, d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 5:36 PM, Mike Carlyle wrote:
Funny. I had the same thought as Carl and started making my own colorized versions of your icons. Are you against color from an aesthetic point of view? Functionally, I think color is very important.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:39 PM, David Holloway wrote:
what visual cues are you using for your tweaked icons? i'm not a big fan of changing color for the variations. i prefer more iconic tweaks in black and white. hmmm... i think i have a musical notation book around here somewhere. maybe that'll help.
d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 04 Mar 2005, at 02:53, David Holloway wrote:
sure. i'll try to remember this time... ;-) i also, have a couple different shakers i'll try to get down while i'm at it.
My only other suggestion is purely UI :) A lot of the variants in the Ludwig v2 kit share the same icon (AFAICT), which I at least find confusing in pattern editor. I started tweaking some of the icons for sounds I had tried using in various songs so I could tell them apart, but some regular means of distinguishing the sounds visually would be useful, I think.
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
Yes I agree - the most effective way would be a combination of shape and colour - I only used the solid block only method for speed really and because personally I find the colour difference the easiest to refer to in db. I'll probably eventually get round to making use a bank of ready made icons in both shape (simple, clear and based very loosely on the actual drum) but heavily biased colour.... The shape would be a tweak as far as I'm concerned though. The best use of shape would be to differentiate between the sampled velocity variation as opposed to the db volume controlled velocity ... so for example a snare drum sampled at top velocity might be a solid red square filling the whole of the icon's area.. a lower velocity sample might be a smaller red square, not filling the whole area ... and a lower velocity still could be even smaller etc. The software volume on each sample can be represented (as it is already) by the tinting of the icon. This would communicate as clearly as possible the sound and pattern. Cheers Sion Morris Liverpool www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html On 10 Mar 2005, at 9:44 pm, David Holloway wrote:
there's no reason not to have it both ways. i think it should be pretty easy for me to offer colorized versions of the icons. i use adobe illustrator to do my icons so it should be pretty easy to color things up a little.
and if i run out of time i'd be happy to send out a copy of the illustrator document and people can tweak and color to their heart's content.
cheers, david.
i have a first cut of some icons that are moving in the direction you describe... i've sliced them up on the web page so you should be able to drag&drop each icon directly into doggiebox from your browser. check 'em out! let me know what you think. http://www.slugworth.com/ludwig/ cheers, david. On Mar 11, 2005, at 2:58 AM, Sion Morris wrote:
Yes I agree - the most effective way would be a combination of shape and colour - I only used the solid block only method for speed really and because personally I find the colour difference the easiest to refer to in db. I'll probably eventually get round to making use a bank of ready made icons in both shape (simple, clear and based very loosely on the actual drum) but heavily biased colour.... The shape would be a tweak as far as I'm concerned though.
The best use of shape would be to differentiate between the sampled velocity variation as opposed to the db volume controlled velocity ... so for example a snare drum sampled at top velocity might be a solid red square filling the whole of the icon's area.. a lower velocity sample might be a smaller red square, not filling the whole area ... and a lower velocity still could be even smaller etc. The software volume on each sample can be represented (as it is already) by the tinting of the icon. This would communicate as clearly as possible the sound and pattern.
Cheers
Sion Morris Liverpool
www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html
On 10 Mar 2005, at 9:44 pm, David Holloway wrote:
there's no reason not to have it both ways. i think it should be pretty easy for me to offer colorized versions of the icons. i use adobe illustrator to do my icons so it should be pretty easy to color things up a little.
and if i run out of time i'd be happy to send out a copy of the illustrator document and people can tweak and color to their heart's content.
cheers, david.
Yeah - I like them a lot - but I'm just scratching my head over the function of the colour though. Its a very good idea to help see the accents by using red - and possibly moving through the spectrum for the lower velocities ending in blue for ghost. this way you'd be able to see the intensity of the pattern through the piece. I'll have a go myself to see how that might work. I'll also have a look at combining your icons with colour in another way - the colour denoting each drum type. I think that only by doing both and trying it out in db will we find out which works best. I'll let you know how I get on Sion Morris Liverpool www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html ------------------------------------------- On 11 Mar 2005, at 1:47 pm, David Holloway wrote:
i have a first cut of some icons that are moving in the direction you describe... i've sliced them up on the web page so you should be able to drag&drop each icon directly into doggiebox from your browser.
check 'em out! let me know what you think.
http://www.slugworth.com/ludwig/
cheers, david.
let me know if you want the illustrator file with vector versions of the icons. they'll be easier to color/edit that way. but only if you have illustrator of course... On Mar 14, 2005, at 2:07 AM, Sion Morris wrote:
Yeah - I like them a lot - but I'm just scratching my head over the function of the colour though. Its a very good idea to help see the accents by using red - and possibly moving through the spectrum for the lower velocities ending in blue for ghost. this way you'd be able to see the intensity of the pattern through the piece. I'll have a go myself to see how that might work. I'll also have a look at combining your icons with colour in another way - the colour denoting each drum type. I think that only by doing both and trying it out in db will we find out which works best.
I'll let you know how I get on
Sion Morris Liverpool
www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html ------------------------------------------- On 11 Mar 2005, at 1:47 pm, David Holloway wrote:
i have a first cut of some icons that are moving in the direction you describe... i've sliced them up on the web page so you should be able to drag&drop each icon directly into doggiebox from your browser.
check 'em out! let me know what you think.
http://www.slugworth.com/ludwig/
cheers, david.
Yes, thanks - I might as well use your icons from source and I do have illustrator... I'm working in illustrator and copying and pasting to Photoshop and then dragging over to the db window. Having spent a bit of time messing about, I think I'm favouring using the colour as a code for the drum types rather than as a guide of velocity. That's looking like basically putting your icons on different coloured backgrounds. If it works well maybe a future release can include a colour selector in the drum editing screen (Ben?). Sion Morris Liverpool www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html -------------------------------------------
let me know if you want the illustrator file with vector versions of the icons. they'll be easier to color/edit that way. but only if you have illustrator of course...
On 11-Mar-2005 10:58, Sion Morris wrote:
The best use of shape would be to differentiate between the sampled velocity variation as opposed to the db volume controlled velocity ... so for example a snare drum sampled at top velocity might be a solid red square filling the whole of the icon's area.. a lower velocity sample might be a smaller red square, not filling the whole area ... and a lower velocity still could be even smaller etc. The software volume on each sample can be represented (as it is already) by the tinting of the icon. This would communicate as clearly as possible the sound and pattern.
Potentially, though, one could need to communicate distinctions within an quite wide range of velocities; MIDI, after all, supports up to 127 levels of velocity (I think). Admittedly, hand choosing between 127 velocities of drum hit in the current UI would be a bit daunting :), but half-a-dozen isn't unreasonable and I wonder if the size of the icon would allow the relative sizes of half-a-dozen differently sized squares to be communicated with sufficient clarity? Working with just 2 or 3 levels of velocity distinction, though, yes, I think that approach would work. Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
I have a lot of respect for your desire to mimic standard notation in Doggiebox. On the other hand, step-sequencing rhythms in any computer program is simply different that writing things on paper. The two experiences are not even remotely connected. Use the best possible UI tools to make the job of sequencing patterns as efficient and effective as possible. For me, it's not romance... it's practicality. On Mar 9, 2005, at 8:12 PM, David Holloway wrote:
my preference towards black & white is more from the point of view of (a) keeping the doggiebox notation consistent with my hand written notation and (b) trying to keep in the spirit of the traditional drum/musical notation.
i read drum notation from magazines, music books, sheet music, etc. so it helps when i'm reading and playing to not have to adjust to different glyphs, remember color codes, etc.
i just dug up my book "Guide To Standardized Drumset Notation" by norman weinberg. i'll see what i can adapt from it...
cheers, d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 5:36 PM, Mike Carlyle wrote:
Funny. I had the same thought as Carl and started making my own colorized versions of your icons. Are you against color from an aesthetic point of view? Functionally, I think color is very important.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:39 PM, David Holloway wrote:
what visual cues are you using for your tweaked icons? i'm not a big fan of changing color for the variations. i prefer more iconic tweaks in black and white. hmmm... i think i have a musical notation book around here somewhere. maybe that'll help.
d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 04 Mar 2005, at 02:53, David Holloway wrote:
sure. i'll try to remember this time... ;-) i also, have a couple different shakers i'll try to get down while i'm at it.
My only other suggestion is purely UI :) A lot of the variants in the Ludwig v2 kit share the same icon (AFAICT), which I at least find confusing in pattern editor. I started tweaking some of the icons for sounds I had tried using in various songs so I could tell them apart, but some regular means of distinguishing the sounds visually would be useful, I think.
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
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understood. and this duality is reflected in most of the high (and not so high) end music programs. i believe apple's new version of garageband allows you to toggle between midi grids and traditional music notation. pretty cool stuff. On Mar 10, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Mike Carlyle wrote:
I have a lot of respect for your desire to mimic standard notation in Doggiebox. On the other hand, step-sequencing rhythms in any computer program is simply different that writing things on paper. The two experiences are not even remotely connected.
Use the best possible UI tools to make the job of sequencing patterns as efficient and effective as possible. For me, it's not romance... it's practicality.
On Mar 9, 2005, at 8:12 PM, David Holloway wrote:
my preference towards black & white is more from the point of view of (a) keeping the doggiebox notation consistent with my hand written notation and (b) trying to keep in the spirit of the traditional drum/musical notation.
i read drum notation from magazines, music books, sheet music, etc. so it helps when i'm reading and playing to not have to adjust to different glyphs, remember color codes, etc.
i just dug up my book "Guide To Standardized Drumset Notation" by norman weinberg. i'll see what i can adapt from it...
cheers, d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 5:36 PM, Mike Carlyle wrote:
Funny. I had the same thought as Carl and started making my own colorized versions of your icons. Are you against color from an aesthetic point of view? Functionally, I think color is very important.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:39 PM, David Holloway wrote:
what visual cues are you using for your tweaked icons? i'm not a big fan of changing color for the variations. i prefer more iconic tweaks in black and white. hmmm... i think i have a musical notation book around here somewhere. maybe that'll help.
d.
On Mar 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 04 Mar 2005, at 02:53, David Holloway wrote:
sure. i'll try to remember this time... ;-) i also, have a couple different shakers i'll try to get down while i'm at it.
My only other suggestion is purely UI :) A lot of the variants in the Ludwig v2 kit share the same icon (AFAICT), which I at least find confusing in pattern editor. I started tweaking some of the icons for sounds I had tried using in various songs so I could tell them apart, but some regular means of distinguishing the sounds visually would be useful, I think.
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
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participants (4)
-
Carl Edlund Anderson -
David Holloway -
Mike Carlyle -
Sion Morris