Carl, thanks for taking the time to repost Mikes urls for Come Alive and the kit. I've downloaded both now had a good look at the pattern. I was wondering if you had a version of ns kit 7 with the drums mapped to midi? I seem to remember you doing a bit on the midi side of db some time back. Can you email it to me or post it up somewhere if you have please? Mike, I think this pattern is a good one to learn about db from - its got a lot of interesting techniques in it. I especially like the off beat snare - a nice variation which adds to the realism and interest in the pattern. also you haven't done the lazy thing, which I do all the time, and repeat the same pattern for verse 1 and 2 etc. I'd also forgotten how useful the icons were - as I was scratching my head over icon design and the Ludwig kit. Are these your ns icons Mike? The basic colour indicator work well to reinforce the different drum types and I also like the shape variarion on the ride bell. More head scratching required I think Sion Morris Liverpool www.cinnamondesign.co.uk/music/music.html -------------------------------------------