February 2005 - Doggiebox - lists.zygoat.ca

MIDI Interaction with Roland SPD-S
by Chris Wicklas 21 Jul '05

21 Jul '05

Hi Everybody, I have read through past posts and haven¹t been able to find an answer to my question. I¹m curious to know if there is a way for me have a Roland SPD-S control the start/stop of patterns in DB. I am just a beginner when it comes to MIDI, so forgive me if this is a simple question. Let me explain. I am using DB as a click to play along with live. I created sections for each of my band¹s songs. Each section consists of a 1 bar phrase that loops with the song¹s tempo... In essence, a database of songs and tempos. When we play live, I create a playlist to mirror our set list of the songs from the sections list. I can then easily start/stop the click for each song by hitting the space bar on my Powerbook and then the down arrow to move on to the next song. This works pretty well, but it would work even better if I could figure out a way to control the start/stop, or maybe even the moving on to the next pattern from the Roland via a foot switch or extra pad. Is this possible? Or is there a way to connect a foot switch directly to the Powerbook which would do the same thing? The Roland is currently connected to a 1ghz Titanium Powerbook via a USB to MIDI controller. I can succussfully use the Roland to record drum parts in GarageBand, so I know the connection works. I haven¹t tried it in DB yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Chris -- "If you can't hear me, it's because I'm in parentheses." - Steven Wright Visit me on the web -- http://www.thedrummist.com

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Re: keyboard shortcuts
by Dan Costello 15 Jun '05

15 Jun '05

Hey Ben-- Remember we were talking about keyboard shortcuts a while back. I do actually have a reason for wanting a particular setup, and I'm curious if others would find this useful as well. Right now, with DB's current programming, the best way (imho) to set up the keyboard shortcuts is to have ALL of the same "drum type" under one key, and just cycle through them by hitting that same key multiple times until you get the one you want. This works great for many reasons, one being the limited number of keys you need to remember to be able to access every drum in the kit. The drawback(s) to that, though: you can't "play" that same drum more than once with the key-- because the next time you hit it, it cycles to the next variant. And unless you give each drum its own distinct "drum type" name, you can't play one drum type on one key and then its variant on another key in succession. (Remember the example I gave, in vol. 20, #5 of the digest.) AND if you have a lot of variants for that one drum and you go past it, you have to cycle all the way through all the other variants to get back around to it. AND you can't go straight back to a variant after choosing a different drum type-- the next time you hit that key for that drum, it goes to the default variant, or the top one in the list if no default has been chosen. I've found that actually "playing" the kit from the keyboard is not only fun, but useful. Sometimes my fingers stumble across a groove that I otherwise wouldn't have written (just like on any instrument-- writing FOR it and writing ON it are often very different processes). Then I just try to write down what I played. And, if I have someone else in the room looking for a particular beat, rather than having to write out the beat and hit play every time I adjust it, before I actually write any of it down I can "play" the beat for them live, by using the keyboard shortcuts. Maybe I'm just being silly about it, but I like the ability to play my Mac keyboard as a drum machine, and I think it broadens DB's usefulness to have that ability. It seems like it would be possible to change the KB shortcut assignments section of the code to accommodate this... any chance you could put this on the wish list? Thanks, Dan

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DB as a plug-in?
by Mike Carlyle 03 Mar '05

03 Mar '05

Is there a possibility that Doggiebox would ever function as a AU or VST plug in? This would allow DB songs to be edited within DAW software and to play in realtime without export to file. Is this redundant? Maybe MIDI functionality allows this already, but I haven't figure out how to run DB without an actual MIDI device (nor do I feel the need to bother). It could make the experience of writing and recording much more seamless and spontaneous. Plug-in status could also open up a new market, since record-o-philes seem to gravitate towards plug-ins like bubble gum to your sneaker. This may have been discussed. It may not be feasible. I'm just sitting and pondering.

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samples vs. velocity changes
by Dan Costello 28 Feb '05

28 Feb '05

> On 20-Feb-2005 03:40, Scott Kerr wrote: >> If we could get velocity changes, that would be AWESOME! >> [...] >> The Ludwig Kit Kicks ASS! Man, that's killer (Ghost notes Rock!) > > For _real_ velocity changes, you have to have actual samples of hits at > different velocity I totally agree with you, Carl. That's what's so great about the Ludwig kit (at least the first one-- haven't played around much with the second one). The "flam" and the "buzz" snare aren't just a bunch of louder and softer (but identical) snare hits. They are recordings of those actual techniques; it's their authenticity that sounds so good. Trying to approximate these techniques in any other kit is almost silly, because it sounds far too mechanical. Our ears must be able to tell the difference between a distinct hit and the same hit at a different volume. DC

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more keyboard shortcuts
by Dan Costello 25 Feb '05

25 Feb '05

Adrian wrote: > I thought DB was step input only. How do you record 'live', so to > speak, > other than by > programming a KC as a rest?) > I don't actually RECORD it live. I just play the beat out, normally for someone else, and if they make a suggestion for changing it, I just play it that way. Then I step-enter it in. I guess if you wanted to have a second program like SoundHack running to capture your DoggieBox "performance," you could do that... but it hasn't been my intention (so far) to try to do it that way. Live recording of the keys you press would enter into a completely different realm of user interface and program code... right Ben? DC

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RE: [Doggiebox] Re: keyboard shortcuts
by adrian.delso＠btopenworld.com 24 Feb '05

24 Feb '05

I was thinking along similar lines to Dan and I wonder if an answer might not be to have left and right hand KCs, so that some of the range of variation would be reduced and the stepping-through would too. If you're a right-handed drummer, the accented hits are more likely to be on that side and the hat and ride are more likely to be on the left, etc. Repeat hits would be hhandled with a mouse click. (This is where I reveal my inability to read user manuals! I thought DB was step input only. How do you record 'live', so to speak, other than by programming a KC as a rest?) Adrian Original Message: ----------------- From: Dan Costello stellaswindow(a)earthlink.net Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:13:08 -0700 To: doggiebox(a)lists.zygoat.ca Subject: [Doggiebox] Re: keyboard shortcuts Hey Ben-- Remember we were talking about keyboard shortcuts a while back. I do actually have a reason for wanting a particular setup, and I'm curious if others would find this useful as well. Right now, with DB's current programming, the best way (imho) to set up the keyboard shortcuts is to have ALL of the same "drum type" under one key, and just cycle through them by hitting that same key multiple times until you get the one you want. This works great for many reasons, one being the limited number of keys you need to remember to be able to access every drum in the kit. The drawback(s) to that, though: you can't "play" that same drum more than once with the key-- because the next time you hit it, it cycles to the next variant. And unless you give each drum its own distinct "drum type" name, you can't play one drum type on one key and then its variant on another key in succession. (Remember the example I gave, in vol. 20, #5 of the digest.) AND if you have a lot of variants for that one drum and you go past it, you have to cycle all the way through all the other variants to get back around to it. AND you can't go straight back to a variant after choosing a different drum type-- the next time you hit that key for that drum, it goes to the default variant, or the top one in the list if no default has been chosen. I've found that actually "playing" the kit from the keyboard is not only fun, but useful. Sometimes my fingers stumble across a groove that I otherwise wouldn't have written (just like on any instrument-- writing FOR it and writing ON it are often very different processes). Then I just try to write down what I played. And, if I have someone else in the room looking for a particular beat, rather than having to write out the beat and hit play every time I adjust it, before I actually write any of it down I can "play" the beat for them live, by using the keyboard shortcuts. Maybe I'm just being silly about it, but I like the ability to play my Mac keyboard as a drum machine, and I think it broadens DB's usefulness to have that ability. It seems like it would be possible to change the KB shortcut assignments section of the code to accommodate this... any chance you could put this on the wish list? Thanks, Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zygoat Doggiebox discussion list - <http://www.doggiebox.com> To unsubscribe, view archives or change your options: <http://lists.zygoat.ca/mailman/listinfo/doggiebox> -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

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1E8, featuring velocity adjustment
by Ben Kennedy 23 Feb '05

23 Feb '05

Grab 'er here: <http://www.doggiebox.com/distribution/Doggiebox-1E8.tbz> Changes in build 1E8 (22 Feb 2005): • New feature: velocity (volume level) adjustment is finally possible on a beat-by-beat basis! Right-clicking or control-clicking on an existing drum in the pattern editor will pop up an adjustment slider. Velocity adjustments will be preserved (but ignored) when editing songs in older versions of Doggiebox. Note that currently, right-click also requires the command key held down for expected behaviour. • New feature: if a drum kit currently in use by an open song is modified, an alert sheet will now be presented allowing you to immediately re-load the drum kit in the song to reflect any changes. • The Sections List and Playlist are now in a split view so that their relative widths can be adjusted at leisure. • Fixed a bug in legacy (1.1-1.2) song encoding which caused the timing of some drums to be off. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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1E8, featuring velocity adjustment
by Sion Morris 23 Feb '05

23 Feb '05

> • New feature: velocity (volume level) adjustment is finally > possible > on a beat-by-beat basis! Right-clicking or control-clicking on an > existing drum in the pattern editor will pop up an adjustment slider. Great feature - I think this is the most important new features in DB of late. I didn't realise how useful and intuitive it would be until I tried it. I really like the graphical fading of the icons too - that is such a good idea. Well done chaps:-) Sion Morris

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new user
by Paul Schwotzer 23 Feb '05

23 Feb '05

Doggiebox List, Is there a way to view the entire list, to see if my question has already been discussed? I assume there is no way to export separate drums as audio (e.g. only the kick which I normally do not reverb), so I am planning to use MIDI export which will give me more flexibility in Pro Tools. I would have expected an audio file that is exported to line-up in Pro Tools with a MIDI file that is exported, but this is not the case. Anyone know why? Is there a way to change the velocity of a single drum hit in a pattern? Thanks, Doggiebox is just what I was looking for. -Paul

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Feature Request
by Chris Wicklas 19 Feb '05

19 Feb '05

Hi Ben, How hard would it be to allow width adjustments to the Sections and Playlist windows? Maybe you could have the Sections window flush left with the playback controls window and have the playlist window¹s right hand side adjust width-wise as the main window grows or shrinks (flush right with the playback controls window). You could then make the middle column divider move right to left, similar to the way the pattern editor window adjusts top to bottom. What do you think? I¹m not sure how many other people would benefit from this, but it would come in very handy for me. I use DB as a click program for when I play live. The Sections list is a collection of 1 bar phrases at varying tempos. Each section is named whatever the name of the song is. I build the set list from the sections at the left. DB works great for this as it¹s very easy for me to move down the list as the set progresses (that is, until I have a stray stick whack my PowerBookhopefully that won¹t happen). As you can imagine, some of these song names get pretty long. Column width adjustments would make life much easier for me. Anyway, just a thought. Thanks for a great program, Chris -- "If you can't hear me, it's because I'm in parentheses." - Steven Wright Visit me on the web -- http://www.thedrummist.com

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Re: relevance of time signatures
by Dan Costello 13 Feb '05

13 Feb '05

Adrian wrote: > ...I do find a maximum of 48 a little limiting, for writing e.g. flams > or grace notes or buzzes. (Only David's excellent Ludwig kit provides > flams and buzzes.) Ah-ha. Now I understand. Especially if it's a slow piece, and you need to approximate a roll or flam or something. That totally makes sense to me. And I agree to a certain point-- although, yes, David's addition of those actual motions on a drum kit are so much more realistic than anything you could get by stacking up individual drum sounds. I've done some fairly complex fills with other kits, but have avoided rolls altogether, unless I'm using the Ludwig kit. ;-) Sterling wrote: > Also, there are numerous ethnic-dance meters in which, for example, > bars of four slow beats alternate with bars of three quick beats. In > such cases, as Adrian suggests, things could still be handled just by > setting different TEMPOS for the quick-beat bars, cumbersome though it > may be to keep shifting tempos and display resolutions. But it's still > nice to have the convention of /4 and /8 time-signatures to play with > in expressing these relationships, in which the actual tempo really > doesn't change at all. That last sentence is it exactly. Even in the most bizarre African, Caribbean, Indian, Javanese, etc. rhythms, those cultures still almost always a basic unit. It's like the smallest Lego block. Even though most of the time you're using the 2x4 blocks to build and create with, you can still look at those as eight little 1x1 blocks. (ex. two groups of three 1x1 blocks, and one group of two 1x1 blocks... or you could separate out just one 1x1 block to use as a spacer, to construct "non-traditionally" or "asymmetrically.") So even though those beats seem "slow" or "fast," it can still be expressed most accurately and consistently in standard western rhythmic notation. About two months ago I attended a master class with Sandip Burman, the world-renowned Indian tablas player. He was working on a new rhythm that he had developed as longer phrases all tacked together (which he referred to as his new "13 and 3 quarters" rhythm), but to be able to share it with us, we all helped break it down entirely into groupings of a single unit. Even though it had sections that felt totally free of any consistent structure, we worked it all out, section by section, so that each section could be expressed in groupings of that smallest single unit. There were three sets of 6 beats (that felt like 6/8, with emph. on 1 and 4), a set of 4 beats (with emph. on 1 and 3), then a group of 5 beats, then the 4-beat set again, then a group of 7 followed by the 4-beat set, then a group of 9 beats followed by a different set of 4 beats with a rest on 1, and accents on 2, 3 and 4. So: (6 + 6 + 6) + 4 + 5 + 4 + 7 + 4 + 9 + 4 = 55 55/4 = 13 3/4 And when it gets going fast, of course you're not counting up to 55 each phrase; you focus on the accents. Just like if I were to write this out, or build it into DB-- I don't want to have to count up to 55 every time, but that's essentially what I'd be doing if I didn't have some sort of subdivision, and a way to express WHERE the ACCENTS are. That's what different meters are all about-- even though a 3/4 and 6/8 measure take up the same space in time at equivalent tempos, the accents are different. Just having "six squares per bar" isn't going to describe that. Sorry this got so long... hope some of you enjoy it. I'll submit Sandip's rhythm (for use with the tablas kit) to the DB repository so you can hear it. Strictly for educational purposes, though, right guys? Cheers Dan

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Hello All
by Scott Kerr 13 Feb '05

13 Feb '05

hey there, I'm new to the list, just thought I'd say hello. So far, so good since I bought Doggiebox. I'm extremely happy with it, BUT... lol I have a question or 2; Any Ideas on 1/4 note triplets, or do you do it the 'hard' way and create an odd-time measure with a different tempo to approximate it? Also, how about other odd-time groupings like 5:4, 7:4, etc... Does one pretty much do the same thing? Last Question, anyone have any ideas on approximating a 'swung' feel? At any rate, here's my site, http://www.guitarius.net and in particular, here's my link to my newest tunes (2005) All done with doggiebox, so check it out, and lemme know what you think... http://homepage.mac.com/scottkerr1/FileSharing6.html Thanks for your time, happy drumming...

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Tested Amplitube- not sure I like it- Ludwig Kit used
by Mike 13 Feb '05

13 Feb '05

I tried my first recording using David H's Ludwig II kit. I really like it. His description of the Bonham-ish sound really rings true on the crashes. I don't know what it is. A compressed sound, maybe? Listen to the ride passage and the fill at around 1:00 into the song below. Pretty cool, if I do say so myself! I also used 1K's Amplitube for the guitar work. It belongs to a friend. I think I'll pass on the purchase. It's pretty cool, but it's a fairly big hassle to post-process the raw sounds as opposed to just micing my Studio 15. Thanks for listening. http://webpages.charter.net/mcarlyle/sounds/mttest.mp3 __________________________ Mike Carlyle Wilbraham, Massachusetts USA

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Re: Design challenges with beat-level editing
by Sterling Beckwith 12 Feb '05

12 Feb '05

Carl makes an even clearer case for what looks like the same sort of solution I spoke to earlier, by advocating a systematic distinction between paste operations that OVERWRITE, and those that REPLACE the hits in the selected target area. His analogy with text-processing seems to me to make sense here. Ben's point about "meaningless" time-signatures is a subtle one. ("Just gimme a 4/4 beat" is fine for lots of people, but any killer notation-based software package today has got to accommodate new-music composers and tala vidwans as well as jammers!) If, for example, you decide that two consecutive 4-beat bars should really be rewritten as 1 bar of 3 beats followed by one of 5, there's probably no easy way to do this now, i.e. to REBAR the grid leaving the hits unchanged. Pattern-based editing should make things like this much neater and simpler to do. Also, there are numerous ethnic-dance meters in which, for example, bars of four slow beats alternate with bars of three quick beats. In such cases, as Adrian suggests, things could still be handled just by setting different TEMPOS for the quick-beat bars, cumbersome though it may be to keep shifting tempos and display resolutions. But it's still nice to have the convention of /4 and /8 time-signatures to play with in expressing these relationships, in which the actual tempo really doesn't change at all. My hunch would be: Press on to complete the implementation of pattern-based editing, and then let's see what actual problems arise. The CMN-time-signatures-vs.-number-of-beats-per-bar problem is already half resolved anyway in DB, since resolutions are expressed only in number of subdivisions per beat, not in CMN-based fractions. And the grid itself is clearly beat-based. So maybe a wholly consistent labeling system isn't so important now. -Sterling

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relevance of time signatures
by Dan Costello 12 Feb '05

12 Feb '05

For those users like myself that DO read/write standard notation, and try to include DB into that context, it'd be a shame to not use time signatures. I'd probably look for a different sequencer. With the current version of DB, you can still doodle all you want, knowing nothing about time signatures and music structures. I don't see how the time signatures get in the way. And to suggest to a serious composer or recording artist to just "stick two 4/4 bars together and change the tempo to mimmick 5/4" is completely ridiculous. (No offense intended at all, Adrian... I just got a good laugh out of that.) Actually another thing Adrian said struck me as a little odd-- a request to add more subdivisions of each beat. THIS is where a tempo change, and an understanding of time sigs, would apply. In standard notation it is EXTREMELY rare to find anything smaller than a 64th note. Even in very fast and complex Indian tabla rhythms, each beat rarely gets subdivided smaller than that. They just change the time signature. And one last thing-- 6/8 is different than 3/4, which is different than 12/16. At least to someone that's reading it from a sheet of music. If I already have something written for which I want to use DB to build a drum track, and which shifts between the feel of 6/8 and the feel of 3/4, I want to see that on the screen in DB-- I don't want to have to guess which section I'm in by looking at where the snare is in that measure. So, I vote for keeping time signatures. Thanks, DC

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Design challenges with beat-level editing
by Ben Kennedy 11 Feb '05

11 Feb '05

Folks, I have been mulling over some design issues for some time now and I would like your feedback. As you can tell from the latest builds, the UI is getting to the point where it is possible to select beats and sub-beats, as well as entire bars or parts thereof, for editing operations. In Doggiebox 1.2 it is only possible to copy and paste whole bars; in this next version the goal is for copying to be possible on a more granular level. However, I am now faced with how to devise a UI that best works to achieve what we want, and there are a few subtle problems that need to be solved. Copying and pasting whole bars is trivial because any given bar either exists or it doesn't, and they can be shuffled around or removed and created like tiles on a tabletop. But once you get to manipulating beats WITHIN those bars, some challenges arise. For example, say you have a 4|4 bar expanded such that there are 8 total beat subdivisions visible (two per beat). In the current builds, you can select one of these beat subdivisions by clicking in the header with the "triangle" cursor. The question is, what should happen if you then perform a Cut? Setting that aside for a moment, say you instead select two adjacent beat subdivisions which account for one whole beat of the bar. Conceivably, performing a cut could remove the beat, turning it into a 3|4 bar. The copied beat could then be pasted anywhere else, say into another 4|4 bar, causing it to become a 5|4 bar. No problem. The conundrum is with sub-beat portions. In the first scenario, removing that subdivision would effectively pull an eighth note from the bar; should the 4|4 turn into a 7|8? Maybe... but what if, instead of being zoomed to two subdivisions per beat, we were zoomed in one more level so as to show triplets for each beat? The concept of removing one such subdivsion now becomes more complicated. I can see two approaches to this problem. One would be to restrict beat-level selection to whole beats only, rather than any arbitrary subdivisions as is possible in current builds. This would eliminate the geometry issue but would forego a lot of flexibility, kind of defeating part of the whole goal of more versatile editing. Another is to change the semantics of the Cut behaviour so that instead of actually removing beats, it merely removes the drums that exist in the selected space (preserving the structure/time characteristics of the bar). Paste would then similarly "paste into the space" without adding any new time or beats to the bar(s) under the cursor. We would create separate commands for adding/removing beats. To me, it seems that while each of these approaches has its benefits neither fully cuts the mustard by itself. For example, with the latter design, it would no longer be possible to delete a bar without using a secondary command. Perhaps a third approach would be to have two sets of editing commands, Copy/Paste Beats and Copy/Paste Drums, which would behave each of these ways respectively. This strikes me as dangerously obscure however. Whaddyall think? Ideas, feedback? -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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Creating kits question
by adrian.delso＠btopenworld.com 11 Feb '05

11 Feb '05

On a coverdisk off a magazine (Digital Music Maker # 8) is a bunch of royalty-free drum samples. I am currently constructing a kit, using them all (about 170 samples), and it's huge - 86mb. Obviously, I won't be submitting it to the db library! I will however use it, as is, until I'm really familiar with it and then discard the samples I never use (I still have the CD, after all.) My question is: what is a sensible number of variants? This set has e.g. ten different woodblock hits and 31 different kicks! I'm thinking three velocities per instrument - Hard, Medium and Light, plus things like a rimshot or two, separate Bell and Edge for Rides. It doesn't feature flams nor buzzes, like David's excellent Ludwig set, which is a shame. I suppose I could import them from David's kit, if that's OK. Subsidiary question: what's the difference between Accent, Default & Ghost and Hard, Medium & Light? (This is only really an issue, if I do decide to post the kit to the Library for approval.) Adrian

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Relevance of time signature?
by Ben Kennedy 11 Feb '05

11 Feb '05

I have another question for you. How important is the time signature functionality in Doggiebox? Does anyone use anything besides a 4-based meter (e.g. 6|8, 2|2, etc.)? Some discussions I've had on a few occasions have led me to start questioning the utility or wisdom in sticking with this western-music idiom. When I started out, I thought it would be clever and useful to give Doggiebox an awareness of real-world musical concepts (a little smarter than other drum machines). In practice however -- aside from identifying the number of beats in the bar -- the time signature does not serve much purpose in the Doggiebox UI other than pretty looks. In light of the geometry and editing issues I raised in the previous message, I'm wondering if it would be advisable to drop the distinction of time signature in favour of a more rudimentary "just how many beats in the bar". Feedback? -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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1E7 posted
by Ben Kennedy 11 Feb '05

11 Feb '05

Hey all, A new build is up at <http://www.doggiebox.com/distribution/Doggiebox- 1E7.tbz>. What's new: • Fixed the immensely frustrating bug introduced in the last build where drums would be put in the wrong places, seemingly at ranodm, when clicking in the pattern editor. • A temporary "Patrickcarl" diagnostic message now replaces the last build's "Carlpatrick" warning, which was not working as intended. This time, any null drum events will be replaced with a temporary unnamed drum which you will then be forced to reconcile to an existing drum. Please report if you see this alert message -- particularly if you find it recurring on any existing songs (after seeing it once) or on any new songs created with this or later builds. • New triangle (beat selection) and i-beam mouse cursors, as well as improved insertion point/selection handling in the pattern editor. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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Re: Design challenges with beat-level editing
by Sterling Beckwith 11 Feb '05

11 Feb '05

Hard to resist this kind of challenge, though finding the right way forward won't be easy. Here's my very preliminary two cents worth. DB already distinguishes between adding BARS (initially blank) and composing DRUMS to occupy those bars. So it's no great stretch to extend this distinction a bit further with some new editing commands. Then how about this? 1) Making CUT/PASTE clearly and solely apply to DRUMS, with no effect on the underlying metric space. I assume that the pasted DRUMS would be automatically superimposed on anything already occupying that space. 2) Adding to the existing INSERT BARS command, two new commands that would ONLY affect the metric grid: DELETE BARS, and DELETE BEATS. You could always, I guess, add COPY SELECTION and REPLACE SELECTION as new editing commands that would grab and transport the whole selection complete with its grid. But it seems somehow cleaner to keep the grid and the pattern as two distinct entities, even if that slows down the editing process somewhat. Actually, I'm not so sure a DELETE BEATS command is really needed. Maybe DELETE SELECTION could do it all, or maybe just DELETE BARS would even suffice. Right now, you can already change the number of beats in any bar, just by changing its time signature, and you can add or insert a bar with any desired number of beats anywhere you want. Being able to delete or insert selected bars from the grid might well be enough, as long as segments of notated drumming can be cut or copied and pasted in anywhere on the existing metric grid. Should it be possible to delete from the grid at LOWER than the beat level? I doubt it. As for cutting and pasting where the item selected is at a higher RESOLUTION metrically than the context into which it is pasted, this might someday be handled by making any bar into which a new pattern has been pasted expand itself automatically to display at the higher resolution of the two. Ideally, the same resolution should always apply to the whole bar, in any case. These are exciting times for Doggiebox. Am eager to see what others think. -Sterling

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Kit modification affects song patterns strangely
by Mike 10 Feb '05

10 Feb '05

I've been working on something with David's Ludwig kit and noticed some odd behavior that may or may not have been reported before. I suppose I could have missed this on the list at some point, but here it is anyway: ------------------ I have a song started with a two patterns established. In one example, there's a crash in the first beat of the first pattern. I copy the first pattern, paste it in at the end, making it the third pattern, and delete the crash because it doesn't belong in the third pattern. This is a commonly used time-saving editing technique that I'm sure most users perform. I hear something I don't like with panning and volume on the high hat, so I open the kit in the kit editor and adjust it to taste. I save the kit and close the editor. I go back to the song and save it for good measure. I re-select the newly saved kit to bring the volume and panning changes into my song. After re-selecting the newly saved kit, the crash I had deleted from the third pattern after pasting it, re-appears in the spot I deleted it from. ------------------- This happens with other drums too, not just the crash. I find it a little bit scary that I have to go back through my patterns and hope that I find all the little doggiebox droppings that I did not intend. The workaround is obvious: Do all kit editing before building a song. On the other hand... It seems like this *should* work correctly at some point. It's natural to want to be able to make slight adjustments to the kit as well as the song itself.

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An update on my OSX re-install
by Mike 09 Feb '05

09 Feb '05

I had posted a cry for help to the list a couple of weeks ago for input on OSX partitioning. My Mac had been literally crawling along and it was extremely frustrating. I'm happy to say that a clean Panther re-install, following an erasing of all partitions and making one big one, has done the job. Thankfully, I save all my emails and was able to locate my DB registration code!

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Re: Doggiebox Digest, Vol 20, Issue 5
by Dan Costello 08 Feb '05

08 Feb '05

> FWIW, I should point out that you can assign the same shortcut to > multiple instruments; hitting the key repeatedly should cycle through > all > of them. Wow. VERY cool depending on how you want to set up and use the shortcuts. Hadn't realized this. Thanks Ben! Cheers DC

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Re: [Doggiebox] MIDI Interaction with Roland SPD-S
by Sooz and Ken Boldt 05 Feb '05

05 Feb '05

Chris, Can the Roland send MIDI Start and Stop messages (along with MIDI clock, which I assume it can)? Recent beta versions of DB can be started by a MIDI Start message, stopped by a MIDI Stop message, and it will set it's tempo in response to MIDI clock messages. Note that these are MIDI Real Time messages and not MIDI time code (MTC). I have both a foot pedal and an external sound module (Solton MS40) that send start, clock, and stop messages, and DB responds to either unit. They're both connected to the Mac thru an M-Audio MIDISport 2x2 MIDI interface. BTW, the foot pedal, a Ploytec 34One, makes it easy to use DB to provide drum accompaniment for live performance - tap the pedal a couple times to set the tempo and then start playing on the next tap, when DB starts. You can even use the pedal to adjust the tempo while playing. Hope this helps. Ken Boldt > > On 28-Jan-2005 18:09, Chris Wicklas wrote: > >> I have read through past posts and haven¹t been able to find an answer to my > >> question. I¹m curious to know if there is a way for me have a Roland SPD-S > >> control the start/stop of patterns in DB. I am just a beginner when it comes > >> to MIDI, so forgive me if this is a simple question. > >> [...] > >> The Roland is currently connected to a 1ghz Titanium Powerbook via a USB to > >> MIDI controller. I can succussfully use the Roland to record drum parts in > >> GarageBand, so I know the connection works. I haven¹t tried it in DB yet.

4 3

A glitch in IE5?
by adrian.delso＠btopenworld.com 05 Feb '05

05 Feb '05

Hokay, this is what happens: I've got a new (unsaved) Song open; I click on the "Drum Kit" button, (for reasons I can't quite recall - I think to assign keyboard shortcuts); the Finder window with all the kits opens and ...that's all she wrote. Almost all the dropdowns are greyed out; clicking on my original Song to make it the active window again just gives a warning tone, and in the end I have no option but to Force Quit, in today's instance, losing a complete Song structure of 100+ bars for a collaboration, I'm long overdue on. Am I doing something I should have spotted in the Help manual? If so, can someone please give me the page number! Thanks, atb Angry Adrian!

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Re: Doggiebox Digest, Vol 20, Issue 4
by Dan Costello 05 Feb '05

05 Feb '05

> > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:51:12 +0100 > From: " H?kon Pettersen " <haakon.pettersen(a)tiscali.no> > Subject: [Doggiebox] 70s ludwig kit and key assignment. > Why can't I assign key shortcuts to the Ludwig kit? > I was trying to do that right now, and all went well until i tried to > save it. > A message box pops down that says "Couldn't save document." > So I can't assign keys in that kit? > haven't tried doing it with any other kit yet. I actually experienced that as well, from many kits, using the 1e4 build of DB. I was able to get around this by saving it as a different name (other than the original kit name-- I just added KB to the end). It let me save it after that, although I'm not sure exactly why. Ben? Help? Then I was puzzled when I went right into a song and they didn't work... but again, there's a trick. If you quit completely out of DB, then start up again, it should work. I think DB has to reload the kit to recognize the changes you've made, or something like that. Not sure. Ben?! Help?!? Another thing I've noticed with DB KB SCs. (ugh...) You sometimes can't use shortcuts to get directly from one drum type (ex. ride cymbal) to a VARIANT of that drum type (ex. bell ride). So, "ride" is (6) on the keypad, and "bell ride" is (7). I hit (6) to select "ride," but then if I hit 7 right after that, nothing happens-- DB won't let me select "bell ride" with a keyboard shortcut. However, I CAN select a different drum type (ex. bass drum) and then go BACK to a variant. (Or you can go into the drum kit and change the "type" name to something unique so DB doesn't see it as a variant anymore, but that sucks.) So, I have "ride" (6) selected. If I hit "bass drum" (0) it will switch to it, and THEN if I change to "bell ride" (7) it will let me switch to that. BEN?!?!? HEEELLLLP?!?!?!?!? > > Thanks! Håkon Pettersen, Norway Welcome to the group, Håkon! Cheers, DC

2 1

70s ludwig kit and key assignment.
by Håkon Pettersen 05 Feb '05

05 Feb '05

Hello, this is my first entry to the list, hope I'm doing it correctly. I have a couple of questions. First one, why can't I assign key shortcuts to the Ludwig kit? I was trying to do that right now, and all went well until i tried to save it. A message box pops down that says "Couldn't save document." So I can't assign keys in that kit? haven't tried doing it with any other kit yet. Second, Is it possible to get hold of the icons of the ns_kit? If i am to make my own version, it would be a lot easier if I had the icons. Thanks! Håkon Pettersen, Norway

4 4

"D'oh! 4/4 rock beat again!?!" syndrome
by Dan Costello 03 Feb '05

03 Feb '05

>> On 02/02/2005, at 6:21 PM, adrian.delso(a)btopenworld.com wrote: >>> if you write songs, >>> then I would strongly recommend that you always write your drum >>> parts, >>> afresh every time. Strongly agree. Especially if you want the song to have its own groove... and a big part of the defining characteristics of a groove is how well the bass and other instruments interact with a drum track. My feeling is that if the drum track is a stock beat, the whole song will either fit it and sound stock as well (which is OK if you WANT that... but don't settle for it if that's NOT what you want), or fight against it (in a bad way) and be mushy. I understand the speed concerns, though... something else upon which I'd like to comment later. And yes, I agree with Carl that programming published drum TABs can be educational... as long as it's used for good, not for evil. Learn from them, then build your own that fit your songs even better. Three suggestions to get away from the typical 4/4 rock beat: 1. Switch a snare drum hit with a bass drum hit in the same place (or two) all the way through the pattern, or just leave one out. (ex. instead of "bass- snare- bass- snare" each measure, try "bass- bass- bass- snare" or "bass- snare- snare- bass" or "bass- .....- bass- snare" etc.) 2. Write lines two bars at a time. So instead of each measure being basically the same... "bass- snare- bass- snare" think in terms of a longer pattern to be repeated: "bass- snare- bass- bass snare- bass- bass- snare" 3. Expand each measure within DB (creating more subdivisions of each beat), and put the bass drum ANYWHERE but beat THREE. "B / / / S / / B / B B / S / B /" "1 / / / 2 / / / 3 / / / 4 / / /" Hope this helps. DC

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doggiebox -> reason
by Eric Davila 03 Feb '05

03 Feb '05

newbie question!! anyone have any experience/tips/tricks for loading doggiebox drum MIDI into reason's drum computer? it is fairly easy to load the MIDI file, and it seems like some of the drums even load up, but it seems to be doing strange things like muting drums where it would be triggering them and such. i love the doggiebox sequencing interface, but would like some more control over the final sound. -eric

5 8

Speed of input?
by Dan Costello 03 Feb '05

03 Feb '05

On Feb 2, 2005, at 10:00 AM, Carl wrote: > (And since I have anything but unlimited time to > spend on my music hobby, time-saving is extremely important!) A couple pre-saved templates can save startup time-- sort of like blank manuscript paper or TAB sheets. Save a 4/4 template (and a 3/4 and a 6/8 and a 5/4 or whatever else you commonly use) with four blank bars, fully expanded out so you don't have to go through these steps each time you start a new song. Most music notation programs have keyboard shortcuts (of widely varying effectiveness) and I grew very comfortable/dependent on this in college. I've found that taking the time to set up an ergonomically "realistic" keyboard shortcut pattern for my DBkits saves a LOT of time on input (much less mousing around), and I can build a pattern (or at least the framework, without a lot of special hits or odd drums) almost as fast as I can type anymore. I use the numeric keypad* for most setups: 0 as the bass drum (with . as a variant, like a feathered bass hit), 5 as the snare (and 2 often as a regular snare variant, like cross-stick or rimshot), 4 and 1 as open and closed hi-hat (sometimes 7 in there as well if I use a sizzle hat a lot in a pattern), 6 as ride, 3, + and - as toms, 7,8,9 as cymbals, and =, /, * as anything else regularly grab (like cowbell, wood blocks, stick clicks, etc.). You don't HAVE to assign a key to every drum... but... If you use a much more complex kit, I think the KB shortcuts can be set up for separate small and CAPS letters, although I've never tried it. That way you could just hold shift to switch to a variant. *Most of you that use your right hand for the mouse will probably find it easier to build your kit on the left side of the keyboard instead... I like having the snare on a key with a "nub" on it as a tactile reference, so that'd mean building around F or D depending on the style of keyboard you have. Just hit the shortcut key, click where you want it, then hit the shortcut key for the other drum, click where you want it, etc. Very economical mouse movement involved. Also, this lets me use my keyboard as a basic drum pad, because when you hit the shortcut key it plays that drum's sound... especially useful when trying to play along or transcribe a beat from a recording. "Oh, that's 55 33 ++ -- 0 5 "... (name that fill!) Again, I hope this is helpful to y'all. DC

1 0

Re: [Doggiebox] The Drummer's Bible
by Carl Edlund Anderson 02 Feb '05

02 Feb '05

On 02-Feb-2005 10:13, adrian.delso(a)btopenworld.com wrote: > Apart from the cursor oddity in IE6 (I've gone back to IE5), I get > occasional problems switching between songs, when it goes to the Doggiebox > Finder screen and basically refuses to do anything - most of the dropdown > options are greyed out - and Force Quit is the only option...but no playback > problems, touch wood. Huh, haven't run into that one! Apart from the widely reported cursor funkiness (and the Carlpatrick error!) I only get the strange "muted hits" behavior and the crash on playback problem. > But, hey! It's still the best drum application I've ever used - no question. Amen! It's been the major factor in finally getting up off my butt and composing and recording :) > David's Ludwig kit is fantastic - you can put all the dynamics into your > Song, just by selecting Accent, Default, etc. - and then export it to > whatever recorder you use as a balanced, panned sub-mix; end of story! I've been using th nskit6 and 7 samples a lot, but recently I've also been playing with David's Ludwig kit too recently. It's good fun trying the same basic dbsong with different kits to see how they sound. Good stuff! > The only thing I've discovered I need to watch is clipping - if I've got > too many instruments all falling on the same division. Either thin 'em out > or reduce the Master Volume - you can always boost it at mixdown time. Yeah, I record most of my drums "live" out of DB, so I first turn off MIDI and play the drums from DB to set the levels on my deck. Then I turn MIDI back on, and do a recording pass :) The different kits can have quite different levels, but thanks to the MIDI syncing (which pretty much works for me) I can eventually record virtual tracks with different kits from the same basic dbsong and then check playback to see how different kits sound with the recorded guitar and bass and stuff. Cool. Cheers, Carl -- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/

1 0

Re: [Doggiebox] doggiebox -> reason
by Scott Kerr 02 Feb '05

02 Feb '05

Here's the file with all of the 1/4, 1/8 and 16th note, as well as some 32nd note permutations of the Carmine Appice book "Realistic Rock'. Great practice tool for those into drums, I find it cool to loop the sections and jam along until I'm tired. I apologize in advance for not really labelling/categorizing the riffs that well. Hopefully this helps, guys! (hahahah Great for Rock, Punk & metal...) I'm probably going to program some cool Dream Theater tunes and whatnot, maybe some deftones and some maiden, just 'cause I'd love to learn to play some of that stuff (PLUS!! Jamtrax!!) hahahaha Anyhoo, hope this helps! http://www.guitarius.net/RealisticRock.dbsong On Monday, January 31, 2005, at 04:22 PM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote: > > On 31 Jan 2005, at 20:26, guitariu(a)telus.net wrote: >> I did the same thing, only with Carmine Appice's 'Realistic Rock'... >> Anyone wants the DB file, lemme know... > > Absolutely! Please :) > > Cheers, > Carl > > -- > Carl Edlund Anderson > http://www.carlaz.com/ >

1 0

General OSX performance issues- slightly off topic
by Michael Carlyle 01 Feb '05

01 Feb '05

Guys, I hope I'm not crossing a line here, but I could use your input. My G4 400 with 700 plus megs of RAM is under-performing, in my opinion. I get loads of spinning beach balls, mostly after launching applications, but sometimes just while perusing around in the finder. I have a dedicated OSX partition, a User drive, a dedicated Swap drive, and a dedicated OS9 partiton (where I hardly ever go). I've also got a second drive where I save all my music and video work. I'm running the latest Panther product, 10.3.7. I'm thinking about a reformat this weekend and pitching the whole concept of partitioning. Without dragging this out into a lenthy off-topic discussion... any thoughts? Please reply off-list, if you don't mind. Thanks.

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Doggiebox February 2005