- Doggiebox - lists.zygoat.ca

Re: [Doggiebox] ns_kit notes
by Mike Carlyle 27 Oct '03

27 Oct '03

On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 11:55 AM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote: > At 13:07 10-10-03, Michael Carlyle wrote: >>> ps - speaking of custom kits, Mike C: do you have any notes on how >>> you put together your ns_kit version? I figure the next best thing >>> to a legally downloadable dbkit version of ns_kit would be a >>> "recipe" DB users could follow so that everyone could get themselves >>> more or less on the same page when swapping dbsong files that use >>> such kits. >> >> This is a good idea, although the details should really be no secret. >> I'll work on this later on when I get home and try to post something >> to the list. > > I'm just going to ask about this again :) Mostly because I've messing > around with kit-building and varying your version in different ways, > but am interested in knowing how you went about getting there in the > first place :) Thanks for the reminder, Carl Here's a synopsis: After downloading and inspecting the zipped files from ns_kit, I realized that the makings of a very nice Doggiebox project were there, although the files seem directed more towards midi instrument users. As I recall, I was immediately reminded about the true nature of velocity variances. As you know, the volume an instrument produces is only one of several complex variables that change with the velocity of the strike. The ns_kit sounds contain many recorded samples for each instrument, each one actually struck at a gradually reduced (or increased, depending on your point of view) impact strength. The ride cymbal, toms, and kick drums, in particular, sound almost completely different than each's loudest velocity strike. Since I was aiming to create lifelike fills and add subtle, human characteristics to my patterns, it seemed like the perfect set of sounds. Step by step, here's what I did: Unpack and inspect the sounds. I used mostly Amadeus (an unregistered shareware product I sometimes play with) and Bias Peak. to do my overview and editing of the sounds. This was quite time consuming, but I wanted to listen to everything. Select the sounds I wanted to use. Rather than create a kit that contained each and every sample provided by ns_kit, I thought I'd take a representative selection that covered the entire velocity spectrum. So, instead of having say, a ride bell that ranged from 1 through 8, I chose, perhaps, 2,4,5, and 7 or whatever struck my ear as being the most useful sounds. This took time. I didn't want to leave anything important out, tonally, but I also did not want to overwhelm myself with choices when using the kit. Also, as you may already have seen, a DB kit becomes larger in direct proportion to the number and length of the sampled sounds you feed it. Edit the sounds for length and volume. After a quick test-run with a new kit using some of the ns_kit sounds, I discovered that the volume on playback was very weak as compared to a similar instrument from Ben's Kit. I decided to pump it up a bit. I used Peak to open each sound I wanted to amplify, and I determined a volume increase through trial and error. After I figured out the volume I wanted to use, I simply applied it to each successive sound file without even listening to it as a time saving measure. It worked out OK, although there remains a slight imbalance with certain instruments, to my ear. (This is why I've repeatedly chimed in about the ability to export multi-instrument files so I can mix them later). I started to realize that some sounds had a very long decay that caused the file size of the saved kit to grow rapidly. I realized that I was reaching a point of diminishing returns. Would the very long, natural decay of a ride or a crash or a snare spring rattle really add to my sound's realism? I decided that much of this would be masked in a final mix, so I began to shorten and fade to zero on a lot of the longer sounds. I was able to radically reduce the file size of the final kit in the long run. To this day, it remains annoying that I have to wait for a ride cymbal to finish ringing on a pattern in order to get on with programming. Create kit graphics. Since my employment background includes the almost daily use of applications such as Adobe's Illustrator and Photoshop, this wasn't too difficult for me. I think I decided to stick with PDF as the kit format. Organizing and deciding upon a naming convention for the files is essential in order to locate these as you're ready to apply one to a kit instrument. I used color to help me quickly identify a sound in the pattern window. I also used some bits of text to help me understand which velocity was used. Put it all together. I'm sure you know the mechanics of building a kit. It's pretty simple. I guess the key was my decision to create one instrument per collection of velocities, rather than a whole bunch of different instruments. It seemed a no-brainer to me. I chose the loudest one for the default, and named the others in such a way that their variance coincided with the velocity level of the ns_kit original sample (numbers ranging from 1 to whatever). The only tricky part was the hi-hat due to the inherent "muting" practice one must follow to get sounds to shut off when others kick in. I do have a situation where the ride cymbal gets muted by one of the hi-hats. I work around this for now. All in all, I'm fairly satisfied. I do adjust volumes and re-import individual sounds back into the kit now and then. I also want to play with the non-muted versions of the snare drum. He calls these rim-shot, but I think this might be a misnomer.

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Platform support (Mac OS X)
by Ben Kennedy 26 Oct '03

26 Oct '03

Hi all, First off, the good news is that Doggiebox seems to run fine under Panther. Secondly, I want to discuss Mac OS X support for moving forward. Results from the questionnaire I posted several days ago have shown some interesting things: - About 3% of respondents are running 10.1, and none of them plans to upgrade. - The remainder were running 10.2, and of those, 88% plan to upgrade to Panther. In the near future (by end of year or early next year), about 1 in 8 users will be running Jaguar (10.2) while the rest will be using Panther (10.3). I am actually a little surprised, and relieved, that so few people are still using 10.1. Accordingly, Doggiebox 1.1 and forward will require Mac OS 10.2 at a minimum. As I'm migrating the project into Xcode (the new developer tools for Panther), I've already become aware of one long-standing incompatibility with 10.1 which is probably responsible for the apparent hang at the end of exporting song to disk. My intent had been to complete 1.0.5 as the last 1.0.x version, with a few more bug fixes beyond what's already in the recent betas, but even now I am wondering if it is worth the effort to fix that particular issue for 10.1 compatibility. (If anyone on the list is using 10.1, speak up!) -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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some drumming posted as mp3
by Mike Carlyle 26 Oct '03

26 Oct '03

I was working on a song and realized I'd never finish it. So... I decided to just wrap it up as a Doggibox demo song and post it for you folks to check out. It's just drums, without any instrumental accompaniment. I hope someone finds inspiration here (inspiration that I, currently, sorely lack). http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=3268&alid=-1 Select the song called "dogdem".

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Re: Re: [Doggiebox] audio out
by dpwalsh6＠cox.net 24 Oct '03

24 Oct '03

http://www.m-audio.com/products/m-audio/mobilepre.php not entirely sure what you guys have been talking about but i saw a reference to the imic and had to give my 2 cents... the imic sucks, plain and simple. I've tried to put some guitar on a track in some audio program or other using my korg pxr4 out to the imic and it was almost 2 full seconds behind. latency in the imic is a huge problem on my ibook. i've been toying around with getting the new edirol 32 key midi-keyboard with a bunch of audio in and out options on the back of the unit. m-audio, which i've provided a link to has some great stuff. the link is to their usb pre which i've seen as low as $179 on the web would be as much as getting multiple imics and i'd assume lightyears beyond in audio quality. ============================================================ From: "Ben Kennedy" <ben(a)zygoat.ca> Date: 2003/10/24 Fri AM 11:34:38 EDT To: "Doggiebox List(s)" <doggiebox(a)lists.zygoat.ca> Subject: Re: [Doggiebox] audio out On 24 10 2003 at 11:30 am -0400, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote: >Does anyone know anything cheaper and dumber (like, just lets you split >multiple audio channels via Firewire or USB into audio, and nothing more? >:) I've got plenty of mixing power on my VS-1680, though little output >power from my PowerBook (which only does Firewire through a PC card, but if >I save up to get my wife one of those new iBooks .... :) By far the cheapest device I've seen is the Griffin iMic... it's got a pair of stereo minijacks (one for in and one for out) and connects by USB. It's what I was using for too long before getting the "real" equipment. :) I haven't tried, but I imagine you could probably plug several of these babies into your computer if you had enough USB ports. Of course, the output quality is lesser (and input quality sucked, I kept having problems with noise and weird clipping and stuff, but I began to conclude it was crappy USB audio drivers in Mac OS X), and they only support 44.1khz at 20-bit. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zygoat Doggiebox discussion list - <http://www.doggiebox.com> To unsubscribe, view archives or change your options: <http://lists.zygoat.ca/mailman/listinfo/doggiebox> ============================================================

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Audio inputs
by Frank Rubino 24 Oct '03

24 Oct '03

Hi- I am totally low-end here but find it is satisfactory to plug a Behringer Eurorack mx602a into my g4's line in. I use a separate mixer (another Behringer ub502) and powered speakers for monitoring. This is cheap (mixers total ~$150) and effective for capturing song ideas. I play guitar and sing and use Doggiebox for drums (aiff output) and Bias-Deck for recording/mixing. I don't use midi at the moment though would like to in future. Can someone give me an idea of what I would gain in sound quality using fire wire or usb audio interfaces? Thanks from a sound newbie- Frank

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OS X subject
by Jim Walter 22 Oct '03

22 Oct '03

I responded to the wrong subject...the last message was in responce to the OS 10.3 discussion Note: forwarded message attached. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com

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Build 1A21 posted
by Ben Kennedy 22 Oct '03

22 Oct '03

Hey all, Grab at <http://www.doggiebox.com/distribution/Doggiebox-1A21.sit>. What's new in build 1A21 (20 Oct 2003): - Fixed the dependency on Arial font (among others) that would cause mysterious non-behaviour if unavailable. - Fixed a bug where selecting a different drum kit while editing a song would sometimes affect only some of the drums. Also, in an on-going effort to track down the mysterious crash-on-launch problems, I've added some diagnostic messages to the startup code. If and when you experience crashing on launch, please check the system log (using Console.app) and send me any relevant output logged from Doggiebox. In particular, it should now log a couple of messages similar to "willFinishLaunching begin" -- I want to see how far it's getting before the crash. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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Mac OS X and upgrades
by Ben Kennedy 22 Oct '03

22 Oct '03

Hi all, With Panther due for release at the end of the week, I would like to get an overview of where Doggiebox users will be standing on the Mac OS X landscape in the near future. As you undoubtedly know, 10.3 will make a slew of new features available to developers, and while exciting, will also bring with it the concerns of backward compatibility. Doggiebox is already limited in some ways due to the effort to support 10.1, and I want to re-visit compatibility goals for the future version road map. So... if you could take about ten seconds to answer the following two- question multiple choice questionnaire, I would appreciate it! Go here: <http://www.doggiebox.com/osquestion.php> Thanks, -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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Some more Doggiebox recordings
by Mike Carlyle 20 Oct '03

20 Oct '03

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=3268&alid=-1 The site above has songs that, with one exception, contain exclusively Doggiebox-played percussion sounds. Not all of them are described that way, but it's true, nonetheless. Please give a listen if you get time.

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Songs (with drums by Doggiebox) have been posted
by Jim Walter 17 Oct '03

17 Oct '03

Hello, I've posted some of the recordings I've created recently, using Doggiebox as my drummer :) http://jimwalter.zapto.org -Jim __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com

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Todo list, etc.
by Ben Kennedy 17 Oct '03

17 Oct '03

Greetings all, In the interests of centralizing all of the feature requests, plans and so on, as well as to help establish a bit of a timeline and to prioritize things according to the needs and desires of the masses, I've posted a 'to do' list here: <http://www.doggiebox.com/beta/> This is an "un-official" page for the time being, and will probably be amended and updated at random intervals. Feedback and suggestions welcome. -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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Re: SV: Re: [Doggiebox] Opening/new song doesn't work
by John Luxford 15 Oct '03

15 Oct '03

Hi Tor, I'm afraid it won't let me open existing songs either (so no songs will appear in the "recent" list). However, I think Ben is on the case now, so hopefully I'll be doggieboxin' soon. :) Cheers, Lux On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 06:20 PM, Tor Lillegraven wrote: > i have the same problem -- i end up just going into "recent" songs and > editing an old track, then re-saving it as the new song... did that > make > any sense? > > Tor > >>>> John Luxford <lux(a)simian.ca> 15.10.03 21:12 >>> > I forgot to add, I'm using Mac OS X 10.2.8 > > Lux > > On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 10:22 PM, John Luxford wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm unable to open a song file, or create new ones. Nothing happens >> at all. The Song Options dialogue never appears on "New song" and the > >> document window never appears when opening an existing song either. I > >> can successfully open kits, however, and the application itself is not > >> crashing. >> >> I've tried this on version 1.0.4, the latest beta, and I also tried >> reverting to 1.0.3. I removed the RealAudio files from >> /Library/Internet Plug-Ins just in case as well. >> >> I've checked the help, faq, and list archives, but found no info on >> this happening. Any advice? Anyone else having this problem? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lux >> >> -- >> >> John Luxford >> President and Chief Developer >> ______________________________ >> SIMIAN systems >> Driving Web Content Management >> ______________________________ >> web : http://www.simian.ca/ >> email : lux(a)simian.ca >> phone : 204.942.8630 >> fax : 309.218.3874 >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> Zygoat Doggiebox discussion list - <http://www.doggiebox.com> >> To unsubscribe, view archives or change your options: >> <http://lists.zygoat.ca/mailman/listinfo/doggiebox> >> >> > > -- > > John Luxford > President and Chief Developer > ______________________________ > SIMIAN systems > Driving Web Content Management > ______________________________ > web : http://www.simian.ca/ > email : lux(a)simian.ca > phone : 204.942.8630 > fax : 309.218.3874 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Zygoat Doggiebox discussion list - <http://www.doggiebox.com> > To unsubscribe, view archives or change your options: > <http://lists.zygoat.ca/mailman/listinfo/doggiebox> > > > ***************************************************************** > Denne fotnoten bekrefter at denne e-postmeldingen ble > skannet av MailSweeper og funnet fri for virus. > ***************************************************************** > This footnote confirms that this email message has been swept by > MailSweeper for the presence of computer viruses. > ***************************************************************** > > -- John Luxford President and Chief Developer ______________________________ SIMIAN systems Driving Web Content Management ______________________________ web : http://www.simian.ca/ email : lux(a)simian.ca phone : 204.942.8630 fax : 309.218.3874

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Opening/new song doesn't work
by John Luxford 15 Oct '03

15 Oct '03

Hi, I'm unable to open a song file, or create new ones. Nothing happens at all. The Song Options dialogue never appears on "New song" and the document window never appears when opening an existing song either. I can successfully open kits, however, and the application itself is not crashing. I've tried this on version 1.0.4, the latest beta, and I also tried reverting to 1.0.3. I removed the RealAudio files from /Library/Internet Plug-Ins just in case as well. I've checked the help, faq, and list archives, but found no info on this happening. Any advice? Anyone else having this problem? Thanks, Lux -- John Luxford President and Chief Developer ______________________________ SIMIAN systems Driving Web Content Management ______________________________ web : http://www.simian.ca/ email : lux(a)simian.ca phone : 204.942.8630 fax : 309.218.3874

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Here's a song I posted today
by Mike Carlyle 12 Oct '03

12 Oct '03

Jim inspired me to finish this, or at least take it to the next level. It was entirely step recorded. The midi parts were programmed rather than played, and the drums are my ns kit through Doggiebox. Listen to the song called "horsecave". http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=3268&alid=-1

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Repeatable crash
by Christoph 10 Oct '03

10 Oct '03

Ben - I've been able to get Doggiebox to crash repeatedly by: 1. Select 'New Song' 2. Click 'Choose...' to select a new kit 3. Select ANY kit, in the examples directory or otherwise, that is NOT 'Ben's Premier Kit' 4. Click 'Ok' to create the song. 5. Doggiebox crashes. If you create a song but don't change the default kit, save it, then change the kit there doesn't seem to be a problem. I also see a crash upon quitting but this seems to only affect songs using a kit other than the default. Hope this helps, Christoph

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New beta 1A20
by Ben Kennedy 09 Oct '03

09 Oct '03

Heyall, Grab the latest at <http://www.doggiebox.com/distribution/Doggiebox-1A20.sit> Here's what's new: - Added support for cut/copy/pasting of drums (with all attributes, e.g. sound, name, icon) in the drum kit editor. - The registration key is now automatically recognised by all users accounts on the machine. - Changed the key shortcut for Preferences from cmd-; to cmd-, in respect of Apple HIG. enjoy, -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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1.04 issues
by Frank Rubino 09 Oct '03

09 Oct '03

Hi- I've noticed that when creating a new song, and choosing Ian's Kit or TR-808, DB crashes. Also, when saving a song, if you click on the song window while the nav dialog is in front, you get the spinning pizza of death. Anybody else with similar experience? Frank

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Triplets
by Tor Lillegraven 09 Oct '03

09 Oct '03

Im trying this post again... One thing I`m not getting the hang of is making fills though. Let`s say I have a 4/4 song @ 130 bpm, and I want to make 4 triplets over one bar (substitute the snare hits on 1,2,3 and 4 with triplets.) How do I do this? Anyone? Thanks Tor ***************************************************************** Denne fotnoten bekrefter at denne e-postmeldingen ble skannet av MailSweeper og funnet fri for virus. ***************************************************************** This footnote confirms that this email message has been swept by MailSweeper for the presence of computer viruses. *****************************************************************

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Re: Triplets
by Ben Kennedy 08 Oct '03

08 Oct '03

On 08 10 2003 at 6:22 pm -0400, Tor Lillegraven wrote: >One thing I`m not getting the hang of is making fills though. Let`s say >I have a 4/4 song @ 130 bpm, and I want to make 4 triplets over one bar >(substitute the snare hits on 1,2,3 and 4 with triplets.) Hmm... I guess that's not really possible right now, is it! You can do triplets over eighth notes, and over quarter notes, but not over anything larger. I can see how it would be desirable, obviously. I think the interface for handling these different rhythms could be revised somehow... Right now the straight time vs. triplets is accommodated simply through the zoom function, but that also tends to lend some confusion visually, when e.g. zooming in and out and trying to remain oriented with the rhythm. I have been intending to add some little icons to indicate the duration of the "currently visible beat", but that will only do so much. Now I'm envisioning something like a "layer", where you could switch between a straight time and a tuplet view of the same bar. Hmmm. Has anybody else thought about this at all, have any ideas? -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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Triplets
by Tor Lillegraven 07 Oct '03

07 Oct '03

Hi Im really getting into programming drums -- I create the full drum track in Doggiebox, then split it up into parts and export it into Digital Performer... This way I can pan and adjust each part of the drum kit individually. (How nice this feature would have been in Doggie box...:-) One thing I`m not getting the hang of is making fills though. Let`s say I have a 4/4 song @ 130 bpm, and I want to make 4 triplets over one bar (substitute the snare hits on 1,2,3 and 4 with triplets.) How do I do this? Anyone? Thanks Tor ***************************************************************** Denne fotnoten bekrefter at denne e-postmeldingen ble skannet av MailSweeper og funnet fri for virus. ***************************************************************** This footnote confirms that this email message has been swept by MailSweeper for the presence of computer viruses. *****************************************************************

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Apple Downloads has 1.0.3, not the latest 1.0.4
by Christoph 07 Oct '03

07 Oct '03

Ben - In case you haven't noticed yet, Apple Downloads http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/audio/doggiebox.html has 1.0.3 instead of the latest 1.0.4. Not sure if you want to bother having them change to the latest version. Cheers, Christoph

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RE: [Doggiebox] 1.04 issues
by Tor Lillegraven 06 Oct '03

06 Oct '03

Actually, I`m having problems creating new songs even in the new version. Right now I can only work on already exsisting songs! Anyone else? Tor >>> Frank Rubino <frubino(a)adobe.com> 10/07 12:30 >>> Hi- I've noticed that when creating a new song, and choosing Ian's Kit or TR-808, DB crashes. Also, when saving a song, if you click on the song window while the nav dialog is in front, you get the spinning pizza of death. Anybody else with similar experience? Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Zygoat Doggiebox discussion list - <http://www.doggiebox.com> To unsubscribe, view archives or change your options: <http://lists.zygoat.ca/mailman/listinfo/doggiebox> ***************************************************************** Denne fotnoten bekrefter at denne e-postmeldingen ble skannet av MailSweeper og funnet fri for virus. ***************************************************************** This footnote confirms that this email message has been swept by MailSweeper for the presence of computer viruses. *****************************************************************

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Fwd: Doggiebox crash-on-launch problems
by Ben Kennedy 04 Oct '03

04 Oct '03

I sent this message to a few people who had specifically reported these weird crash-on-launch issues. If anybody on the list here has also been seeing this symptom, let me know. At this point I don't know what is responsible for the crashing, but I want to try reworking a few things that may or may not implicate the launch process, and see if it makes any difference to those of you who can reproduce the crash. -ben ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Subject: Doggiebox crash-on-launch problems Date Sent: Saturday, 04 October 2003 6:03 pm From: Ben Kennedy <ben(a)zygoat.ca> To: Ben Kennedy <ben(a)zygoat.ca> Greetings, I am writing to about a dozen of you who have reported inexplicable crash-on-launch problems with Doggiebox. I want to focus in on this a little more closely and try a few things to see if I can figure out what the heck is responsible for the problem. To date, I have NEVER seen this problem myself, so it's been baffling how to track it down. Nonetheless, a range of people continue to report it, so it's something I need to figure out. If you are still using Doggiebox, and if you are still seeing this crash- on-launch behaviour with regularity, and if you would like to work with me to test out some new builds as I try out some different things with the code, please reply. thanks, -ben -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- -- Ben Kennedy, chief magician zygoat creative technical services 613-228-3392 | 1-866-466-4628 http://www.zygoat.ca

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A song I wrote with Drums By Doggiebox!
by Christoph 03 Oct '03

03 Oct '03

If anyone is interested, I've posted a song that has Drums By Doggiebox. It's a straight guitar rock instrumental, something fitting for a flick about skiing. The drums are pretty simple but maybe will inspire those who are looking for ideas. I'd be happy to share the .dbsong file if someone wants it too. The song's name is "Crash" and can be downloaded from http://www.itsallconnected.com/downloads.php. Thanks for your time, Christoph PS. I think we should make "Drums By Doggiebox" a catch phrase we can stick into liner notes, MP3 tags and such :)

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nskit URL
by Mike Carlyle 03 Oct '03

03 Oct '03

For those that might have missed it the first time: http://www.amlitho.com/users/mcarlyle/nskit_1dbkit.sit

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