Well, I have asked for this adjustment a couple of times -- one problem I`m having is that the exported audio tracks have a "head" and a "tail".
I use Digital Performer, and set up my drum tracks on top of a MIDI click. The problem with exporting from Doggiebox has been that the tracks that I export don`t fit with the clicks, even if the bpm is the same.
This is because there is a small snippet of static before the first beat of the Doggiebox drum track. Similarily, there is a fade out after the track is done.
Tor
Carl Edlund Anderson cea@carlaz.com 30.10.03 10:03 >>>
At 00:07 30-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
- By popular demand, exporting now produces output of precise length
and
no longer compensates for final decay.
OK, I feel dumb for asking this, but what does that mean? Or rather, what did it do before that it doesn't do now, and why? :)
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
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I had also requested the "no decay" export, for the sake of copying or looping segments of data. However, I also sometimes like exports WITH decay for entire pieces. Could this be an export preference (at some point)?
-- Lee
On 10/30/03 2:04 AM, "Tor Lillegraven" Tor.Lillegraven@vg.no wrote:
Well, I have asked for this adjustment a couple of times -- one problem I`m having is that the exported audio tracks have a "head" and a "tail".
I use Digital Performer, and set up my drum tracks on top of a MIDI click. The problem with exporting from Doggiebox has been that the tracks that I export don`t fit with the clicks, even if the bpm is the same.
This is because there is a small snippet of static before the first beat of the Doggiebox drum track. Similarily, there is a fade out after the track is done.
Tor
Carl Edlund Anderson cea@carlaz.com 30.10.03 10:03 >>>
At 00:07 30-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
- By popular demand, exporting now produces output of precise length
and
no longer compensates for final decay.
OK, I feel dumb for asking this, but what does that mean? Or rather, what did it do before that it doesn't do now, and why? :)
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
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At 16:31 30-10-03, lee gummerman wrote:
I had also requested the "no decay" export, for the sake of copying or looping segments of data. However, I also sometimes like exports WITH decay for entire pieces. Could this be an export preference (at some point)?
What I don't understand what effect the "no decay" export has? Where does Doggiebox now stop exporting? For example If the final sample in your dbsong is, say, and giant ringing gong hit :) with a long decay, does Doggiebox now cut this off at some point in the export process?
Or is there some other effect at work here?
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
On 30 10 2003 at 11:49 am -0500, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
What I don't understand what effect the "no decay" export has? Where does Doggiebox now stop exporting? For example If the final sample in your dbsong is, say, and giant ringing gong hit :) with a long decay, does Doggiebox now cut this off at some point in the export process?
Yes, exactly. Until this beta, Doggiebox was "smart enough" to let the gong decay (let its samples finish playing completely) before ending the file. What happens now is that the file stops dead at the end of the last bar. Actually, now "what you hear is what you get" -- due to some revisions in the playback scheduling and tracking in this build, you'll notice that all sound stops abruptly when the end of the playback region is reached. Export will do the same thing.
This was requested by people like Tor and Lee who want to export loops of prescribed length, without having to edit them down afterwards.
Having said this, I'm noticing there is still something skewed a bit with the math -- exporting one bar of 4/4 at 120 bpm is giving a file of about 2.085 seconds or somesuch, instead of 2.000 as one would expect. I'm going to look at that in a moment.
-ben
At 17:06 30-10-03, Ben Kennedy wrote:
Until this beta, Doggiebox was "smart enough" to let the gong decay (let its samples finish playing completely) before ending the file. What happens now is that the file stops dead at the end of the last bar. Actually, now "what you hear is what you get" -- due to some revisions in the playback scheduling and tracking in this build, you'll notice that all sound stops abruptly when the end of the playback region is reached. Export will do the same thing. This was requested by people like Tor and Lee who want to export loops of prescribed length, without having to edit them down afterwards.
Argh! So in order to preservedecay, I now need to add some number of empty bars at the end of the piece? I can see how this is useful for loopers, but I'd also cast a vote for making this a preference (or possibly simply have a "export with decay" menu choice and an "export without decay" menu choice?).
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
At 5:12 PM +0000 10/30/03, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
Argh! So in order to preservedecay, I now need to add some number of empty bars at the end of the piece? I can see how this is useful for loopers, but I'd also cast a vote for making this a preference (or possibly simply have a "export with decay" menu choice and an "export without decay" menu choice?).
Add me to this list--I prefer having "export with decay" as the default myself, but would be happy to have this dealt with as a with/without option.
Carl
Add me to this list--I prefer having "export with decay" as the default myself, but would be happy to have this dealt with as a with/without option.
It is logical, once explained, that to get the final decay an extra bar needs to be added to the end of the song. If documented I'm sure most people will figure that out.
That said, I agree with Carl that there should be an export option (maybe on the export dialog?) that allows the final decay to be added if necessary. This will accommodate those that may not understand or like the above mentioned quirk.
Cheers,
Christoph
Addressing just this issue, This is the way any "PRO" DAW works, I think that the majority of people who are experienced in creating music on a computer would expect a program to work in this way. I almost always add an extra bar at the end of a Cubase song if using VSTis or any type of delay or reverb.
-Doug
On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 01:47 PM, Christoph wrote:
Add me to this list--I prefer having "export with decay" as the default myself, but would be happy to have this dealt with as a with/without option.
It is logical, once explained, that to get the final decay an extra bar needs to be added to the end of the song. If documented I'm sure most people will figure that out.
That said, I agree with Carl that there should be an export option (maybe on the export dialog?) that allows the final decay to be added if necessary. This will accommodate those that may not understand or like the above mentioned quirk.
Cheers,
Christoph
At 04:04 31-10-03, Doug wrote:
On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 01:47 PM, Christoph wrote:
It is logical, once explained, that to get the final decay an extra bar needs to be added to the end of the song. If documented I'm sure most people will figure that out. That said, I agree with Carl that there should be an export option (maybe on the export dialog?) that allows the final decay to be added if necessary. This will accommodate those that may not understand or like the above mentioned quirk.
Addressing just this issue, This is the way any "PRO" DAW works, I think that the majority of people who are experienced in creating music on a computer would expect a program to work in this way. I almost always add an extra bar at the end of a Cubase song if using VSTis or any type of delay or reverb.
OK, I'm ready to go along with "expected behavior": it seems like adding extra bar(s) at the end of a piece to preserve sample decay may be the way to go. Though speaking as someone definitely not claiming to be experience at creating music on a computer :) documenting that behavior would definitely help a clueless newbie like me understand that it wasn't a bug ("Hey, the darn thing cuts off just before the end!" ;)
(Ben's "Option 3: context sensitive behavior" definitely sounds dangerous, since it removes the control from the user, and some guy who wants to export short samples with decay for whatever reason is going to tear his hair out :)
At 10:04 30-10-03, Tor Lillegraven wrote:
Well, I have asked for this adjustment a couple of times -- one problem I`m having is that the exported audio tracks have a "head" and a "tail". I use Digital Performer, and set up my drum tracks on top of a MIDI click. The problem with exporting from Doggiebox has been that the tracks that I export don`t fit with the clicks, even if the bpm is the same. This is because there is a small snippet of static before the first beat of the Doggiebox drum track.
I haven't ever noticed the static, but since the only synchronization in my recording process is managed by my ears listening for audible beats, I probably _wouldn't_ notice ;)
However, since since I hope someday my MIDI-speaking recording module will be able to somehow issue at least a "Start!" command to Doggiebox, I'd be keen to understand what the issue is with the mysterious "drifting beats". (Though the ability to add timing imperfections or even tweak particular parts of the drum part slightly ahead or behind the beat _intentionally_ would be cool :)
I have messed around now with some of the ideas list-people put to me before, and I did manage to record a second "take" from a Doggiebox AIFF on a virtual track in my VS-1680, and then manually nudge it to line up with the start of the original "take" on a different track (I just located the first beats and scrubbed backwards until I couldn't hear them anymore in order to determine their "start" :) A somewhat indelicate method, but it worked :)
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson mailto:cea@carlaz.com http://www.carlaz.com/
Yes, exactly. Until this beta, Doggiebox was "smart enough" to let the gong decay (let its samples finish playing completely) before ending the file. What happens now is that the file stops dead at the end of the last bar.
If one adds an empty measure to the end of the song, will DB let the last sample decay over the length of the empty measure?
Having said this, I'm noticing there is still something skewed a bit with the math -- exporting one bar of 4/4 at 120 bpm is giving a file of about 2.085 seconds or somesuch, instead of 2.000 as one would expect. I'm going to look at that in a moment.
I remember noticing this some time ago and have worked around it since by using db not as a 'song-editor' but as a 'measure-editor'. That is, I create 1 or two measures at a time and export to my muti-track environment where I do the sequencing and align the slightly-off measures.
As my songs get more complex this will become a pain, it is true.
On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 12:06:01PM -0500, Ben Kennedy wrote:
On 30 10 2003 at 11:49 am -0500, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
revisions in the playback scheduling and tracking in this build, you'll notice that all sound stops abruptly when the end of the playback region is reached. Export will do the same thing.
On a similar topic (and sorry if this is an RTFM) - I notice that sometimes when recording the session stops when it reaches the end of the other tracks that I'm playing over and sometimes it does not... e.g. I'm playing along with a track and my recording session ends apparently to be the same length as the first track... Is there some way to control that?
thanks, Pat
On 30 10 2003 at 12:15 pm -0500, Pat wrote:
On a similar topic (and sorry if this is an RTFM) - I notice that sometimes when recording the session stops when it reaches the end of the other tracks that I'm playing over and sometimes it does not... e.g. I'm playing along with a track and my recording session ends apparently to be the same
length as
the first track... Is there some way to control that?
Um, Pat... Doggiebox does not (yet) have any kind of recording facility. Are you talking about some other software?
-ben
On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 12:15:19PM -0500, Ben Kennedy wrote:
Um, Pat... Doggiebox does not (yet) have any kind of recording facility. Are you talking about some other software?
I'm sorry, I'm completely sleep deprived... I'm recording with Doggiebox in Audacity (cool free recording tool) and replying to email in that list as well.
Sorry. I'll shut up now ;)
Pat
Ben-
I've noticed this as well (haven't yet tried the latest beta though). When I import a full song length (4 minutes or so) DoggieBox drum track, it drifts in time as compared to the sequencer. For example, I laid out an entire 4 minute song (100 bpm) in DoggieBox and exported it as AIFF. In AudioDesk after a while the drum track beats do not line up with the beats and measures in AudioDesk. Same result using Tracktion.
Measures seem to be close for a while, then drift. I would expect them to be exact.
-Andrew
On Oct 30, 2003, at 10:06 AM, Ben Kennedy wrote:
Having said this, I'm noticing there is still something skewed a bit with the math -- exporting one bar of 4/4 at 120 bpm is giving a file of about 2.085 seconds or somesuch, instead of 2.000 as one would expect. I'm going to look at that in a moment.
On 30 10 2003 at 11:31 am -0500, lee gummerman wrote:
I had also requested the "no decay" export, for the sake of copying or looping segments of data. However, I also sometimes like exports WITH decay for entire pieces. Could this be an export preference (at some point)?
I'd like to see what popular opinion is on this -- what do other people think?
In general, my desire is to avoid creating a new toggle option (making the interface more complex) unless it really adds value. x
1. keep the new behaviour where no decay is ever respected, and instead simply advise users to insert an extra empty bar or two and end of song if appropriate. Upsides: no additional UI and consistent behaviour all the time. Downside: not quite as intelligent, means extra consideration for user.
2. provide a preference option for turning on or off the smart decay. Upside: user can adjust to suit his workflow. Downside: complicates the UI.
3. have context-sensitive behaviour, where decay is respected when exporting the entire song, but ignored when exporting a selection. Upsides: provides flexibility that is hopefully most appropriate for the situation. Downside: inconsistent behaviour might confuse an unwitting user.
Personally I am inclined to disfavour option 2 the most. I think either 1 or 3 are reasonable, but would be interested to see what others feel would be the best approach.
-ben
On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 12:13:27PM -0500, Ben Kennedy wrote:
- provide a preference option for turning on or off the smart decay.
Upside: user can adjust to suit his workflow. Downside: complicates the UI.
I can understand your reluctance from a UI point of view, but this seems like a reasonable preference toggle to me. Preferences aren't in the user's way unless they go looking for them, so I don't see it as a problem.
Just my 2 cents.
Pat
I'd vote for either the preference/toggle, or the exact length. My gut feel is that the exact length export (add extra bars to hear the tail) is the most "works as expected" method. -Andrew
On Oct 30, 2003, at 10:13 AM, Ben Kennedy wrote:
I'd like to see what popular opinion is on this -- what do other people think?
In general, my desire is to avoid creating a new toggle option (making the interface more complex) unless it really adds value. x
I would have to Second this. What's the point of using a drum sequencer if I have to go back and clean up after it. This would make me use something different for drum editing. I like Doggie Box, but I think that it needs a lot more features to be the versatile drum sequencer of choice for producers (in the dance genre anyway). For me it's a little too simplistic. Adding more options to the UI would be totally welcome for me as long as they are intelligible and useful. One of the big things for me aside from timing (which is very important as I sequence in Cubase with 16 measure loops) is velocity. I know that I can set up a kit with differing velocities, but making this kit and then having to switch switch drums from the drum menu is a little tedious to me and I end up just using Reason. There are things about Reason that bug me ( I HATE the sequencer) and if DoggieBox gets to the point where it is easy to use with all the option I need I will use it for my drum sequencing instead of just an experimentation pad as I do now. I'm hoping that it will, and that's why I'm on the litserv.
respectfully,
Doug
On Thursday, October 30, 2003, at 01:34 PM, Andrew Frank wrote:
I'd vote for either the preference/toggle, or the exact length. My gut feel is that the exact length export (add extra bars to hear the tail) is the most "works as expected" method. -Andrew
On Oct 30, 2003, at 10:13 AM, Ben Kennedy wrote:
I'd like to see what popular opinion is on this -- what do other people think?
In general, my desire is to avoid creating a new toggle option (making the interface more complex) unless it really adds value. x
On 30 10 2003 at 5:04 am -0500, Tor Lillegraven wrote:
This is because there is a small snippet of static before the first beat of the Doggiebox drum track. Similarily, there is a fade out after the track is done.
Tor, are you still finding this with 1A22?
The tail at end should now be gone. I have never been aware of static before the first beat though. Could you send me an example?
-ben
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Andrew Frink -
Ben Kennedy -
Carl Edlund Anderson -
Carl Freire -
Christoph -
Doug -
Dozuki -
Frank Rubino -
lee gummerman -
Pat -
Tor Lillegraven