It is a good question - how to reconcile this. One way would be something like:
Doggiebox is a 'slave' VST or other 'plugin' or something like that. Audio interfacing software like cubase, pro logic etc have their own 'times'.
The host application should have the 'master' time. So db would sit inside the host application as a slave (in terms of the time). When you press 'play' in cubase for example, your embedded db app starts as well. So they have to be synchronised and thats all that has to happen. Once you have created your drum section using db, just follow the same guidelines for other midi created sections : ie export drums to midi file, import back in as midi (into cubase) and play back using some other VST plugin that specializes in drum sounds. The final step would be to export that as wave files before finally importing back in again so you can better manipulate (for reverb/compression etc) . I'm sure there are other ways it could happen, but I'm just theorizing.
What ya reckon about that ? And even if that is a good idea, whats the chance of the doggiebox dudes listening and saying, 'yeah - lets do that ' ??
Thanks for listening,
David
--- Sage sage@gypsycaravan.com wrote:
I understand this. But Doggiebox has its own timeline and play controls, completely independent of any external hosts. I don't know how you would reconcile the two -- for example, how would time signature and tempo changes in Doggiebox affect the host, and vice-versa?
On 5/6/06, David Weisinger d_weising@yahoo.com wrote:
I'll explain it so that you never have difficulty understanding it ever again! I am a songwriter.
That
means for me, I write my song first, then worry
about
drums. So, sure, a rewire would work too. As
long
as I can interactively hear my vocal and guitar
and
program the drums.
It actually helps with composition too. You write
a
song, you put some drums in and along the way
realise
that an extra bar is needed here and there, so you
put
the drums in, and re-record the song and keep repeating this until you are happy. From cubase,
I
used to do this with fruity loops, but I'm on mac
now.
Of course, doggiebox is its own app and thats
fine -
it just makes it more powerful and maximises its useage.
Thanks
David
--- Sage sage@gypsycaravan.com wrote:
Every now and again someone asks for this and it always seems totally backwards to me. Doggiebox's strength is not in
its
sound generation but in its composition capabilities. If
anything,
Doggiebox should be a VST or AU host, not a plugin.
You can output to WAV or MIDI if you want to
import
your drum tracks into Cubase. I do this with Logic and highly recommend it.
On 5/5/06, David Weisinger d_weising@yahoo.com wrote:
hi there. any plans to make doggiebox a
plugin so
that I could for example, open cubase and
press
play
and make my drums as I hear my guitar playing
?
Thanks,
David
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On 07/05/2006, at 7:03 PM, David Weisinger wrote:
It is a good question - how to reconcile this. One way would be something like:
Doggiebox is a 'slave' VST or other 'plugin' or something like that. Audio interfacing software like cubase, pro logic etc have their own 'times'.
The host application should have the 'master' time. So db would sit inside the host application as a slave (in terms of the time). When you press 'play' in cubase for example, your embedded db app starts as well. So they have to be synchronised and thats all that has to happen.
This is a great suggestion and one that would improve the song writing experience a lot. A few points I would note:
If it can be done. ie the play button in the master app starts DoggieBox, you're still left with the case of when you want to start to play from, say, bar 12 and a half. I would guess that there will be a lot more programming involved than just a simple start function - synching through the song will be needed as well.
Also, an RTAS version would be needed for us ProTools people. (Other plugin types as well??)
In terms of functionality, it is not unlike the reverse of my suggestion a few months ago for Version 2 of DB... My idea was that DB imported the audio, rather than the master app "importing" DB ( see below). This wouldn't be as good as you couldn't change the audio without cranking up the audio editor again, but it does get around the different plugin formats that would need support.
Ben are these at all possible. or are we just pissing in the wind here????
Here's what I wrote originally: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a suggestion for DB Version 2. How about adding the ability to include an audio track?
My thinking is this.
1) I write a song
2) Create a Drum part and then add it to (in my case) Pro Tools.
3) I add guitars etc
4) I notice the drum part needs some frills etc.
5) Now the difficulties start. I have to edit the DB file without reference to the song itself. If I could import the song I have created in PT (less the drums) into DB I could play these together and get a much better feel for the drum part and how it would fit the song. I could see that is the second half of bar 18 in the bridge that needs a fill etc.... Instantly add it, play that bit again (with the audio) and see if it flies or not. Very much like MIDI editing, but using the nice friendly DB interface rather than the incredibly ugly MIDI screen lines.
At the moment, I have my guitar on my lap as I hit the space bar to listen to the drum part, edit it, try again, usually stuffing it up as I miss the start... (you can fill in the blanks here). When it's all done I need to import the new drum track into PT and see how it really sounds. To audition it in DB would remove a lot of this hassle.
The audio wouldn't need any editing abilities, just an import function and a play/mute button. It would always play in correct time as it was recorded against the original DB file. The only weird bit would be starting the DB part at bar x and having the sound file know where to start.
Does any one else think this would be useful???
Cheers and a Happy New Year to all the DoggieBoxers out there.
Charlie
PS I suggested it as Version 2 as it would seem to be the sort of thing that a paid for update requires - if you want to add it to the current upgrades, go for it : - )
Well Charlie, it seems I'm not alone. Definitely, if it is to be considered by the doggiemen, different formats will have to be considered, but that seems a little problematic as there are so many different apps from Cubase to Nuendo to Pro Tools, Pro Logic etc. Maybe a VST and RTAS would do it for most. Not sure, I haven't investigated this sort of thing - after all, I'm just a muso trying to write and record some songs!
The db application would definitely need constant synching to the host application. As per your original remarks some time ago, the way to get around it would be to have import functionality on doggiebox's end - but that does present more issues than just having an import function. The same issue you presented - what happens at line 12, bar 2 if I want to start there ? Doggiebox would need some customisation to handle all those sorts of things. I'm interested to hear back from Doggiebox themselves to get their take on it and the likelyhood of any of these options being incorporated in Doggiebox.
Thanks,
David
--- Charlie the_lonely_sea@iinet.net.au wrote:
On 07/05/2006, at 7:03 PM, David Weisinger wrote:
It is a good question - how to reconcile this.
One
way would be something like:
Doggiebox is a 'slave' VST or other 'plugin' or something like that. Audio interfacing software
like
cubase, pro logic etc have their own 'times'.
The host application should have the 'master'
time.
So db would sit inside the host application as a
slave
(in terms of the time). When you press 'play' in cubase for example, your embedded db app starts as well. So they have to be synchronised and thats
all
that has to happen.
This is a great suggestion and one that would improve the song writing experience a lot. A few points I would note:
If it can be done. ie the play button in the master app starts DoggieBox, you're still left with the case of when you want to start to play from, say, bar 12 and a half. I would guess that there will be a lot more programming involved than just a simple start function
- synching through the song will be needed as well.
Also, an RTAS version would be needed for us ProTools people. (Other plugin types as well??)
In terms of functionality, it is not unlike the reverse of my suggestion a few months ago for Version 2 of DB... My idea was that DB imported the audio, rather than the master app "importing" DB ( see below). This wouldn't be as good as you couldn't change the audio without cranking up the audio editor again, but it does get around the different plugin formats that would need support.
Ben are these at all possible. or are we just pissing in the wind here????
Here's what I wrote originally:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a suggestion for DB Version 2. How about adding the ability to include an audio track?
My thinking is this.
I write a song
Create a Drum part and then add it to (in my
case) Pro Tools.
I add guitars etc
I notice the drum part needs some frills etc.
Now the difficulties start. I have to edit the
DB file without reference to the song itself. If I could import the song I have created in PT (less the drums) into DB I could play these together and get a much better feel for the drum part and how it would fit the song. I could see that is the second half of bar 18 in the bridge that needs a fill etc.... Instantly add it, play that bit again (with the audio) and see if it flies or not. Very much like MIDI editing, but using the nice friendly DB interface rather than the incredibly ugly MIDI screen lines.
At the moment, I have my guitar on my lap as I hit the space bar to listen to the drum part, edit it, try again, usually stuffing it up as I miss the start... (you can fill in the blanks here). When it's all done I need to import the new drum track into PT and see how it really sounds. To audition it in DB would remove a lot of this hassle.
The audio wouldn't need any editing abilities, just an import function and a play/mute button. It would always play in correct time as it was recorded against the original DB file. The only weird bit would be starting the DB part at bar x and having the sound file know where to start.
Does any one else think this would be useful???
Cheers and a Happy New Year to all the DoggieBoxers out there.
Charlie
PS I suggested it as Version 2 as it would seem to be the sort of thing that a paid for update requires - if you want to add it to the current upgrades, go for it : - )
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On 07 May 2006, at 12:03, David Weisinger wrote:
Doggiebox is a 'slave' VST or other 'plugin' or something like that. Audio interfacing software like cubase, pro logic etc have their own 'times'.
Hmm, doesn't Doggiebox already do something like this? I whimpered for ages until Ben shut me up by making it possible to DB to act as a MIDI master or slave to control or be controlled by my Roland VS-1680 DAW :) and my DAW's instructions for setting it up as master or slave to something included explicit instructions for Cubase. I know DB would be a piece of software on the same computer, rather than communicating with an entirely separate device, but could it in principle work to slave DB to Cubase or Cubase to DB via MMC and MTC? Can two pieces of software on the same machine function as communicating MIDI devices?
I know I can set up my kit so that the DAW starts recording when I hit Play on DB -- or, alternatively, so that DB starts playing when I hit Record on the DAW.
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
Hmmmm...
I remember this (a bit), but didn't take too much notice at the time as I was a newbee MIDI back then. (still am really...)
I'm off for a few weeks, but when I get back I'll have a play with it and try to get DB to be triggered with ProTools. Does anyone have any staring points/suggestions/solutions??? No point in re- inventing any wheels.
Cheers
Charlie
On 08/05/2006, at 3:55 PM, Carl Edlund Anderson wrote:
On 07 May 2006, at 12:03, David Weisinger wrote:
Doggiebox is a 'slave' VST or other 'plugin' or something like that. Audio interfacing software like cubase, pro logic etc have their own 'times'.
Hmm, doesn't Doggiebox already do something like this? I whimpered for ages until Ben shut me up by making it possible to DB to act as a MIDI master or slave to control or be controlled by my Roland VS-1680 DAW :) and my DAW's instructions for setting it up as master or slave to something included explicit instructions for Cubase. I know DB would be a piece of software on the same computer, rather than communicating with an entirely separate device, but could it in principle work to slave DB to Cubase or Cubase to DB via MMC and MTC? Can two pieces of software on the same machine function as communicating MIDI devices?
I know I can set up my kit so that the DAW starts recording when I hit Play on DB -- or, alternatively, so that DB starts playing when I hit Record on the DAW.
Cheers, Carl
-- Carl Edlund Anderson http://www.carlaz.com/
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On 08/05/2006 09:12, Charlie wrote:
I remember this (a bit), but didn't take too much notice at the time as I was a newbee MIDI back then. (still am really...)
Me too! :)
I'm off for a few weeks, but when I get back I'll have a play with it and try to get DB to be triggered with ProTools. Does anyone have any staring points/suggestions/solutions???
I remember the configuration for DB is handled in the preferences. I'll have to check (when I'm at home) to see if I did anything particular there, or the results of my original experiments might be documented in the DB list archives. I pretty much set it up to get it working with my kit and left it that way :)
My DAW manual had generic instructions for setting up the DAW to work as master or slave with MIDI hardware/software, as well as specific instructions for some common packages like Cubase and Logic. I just triangulated and it pretty much worked happily with DB (sometimes a little wobbly, possibly because of the stability of my MIDI connection), so that my hardware was tracking MTC in sync with DB and, with a little luck, I could start from anywhere in my DB song (though usually at the beginning) and it would sync to the right place in the track recorded on my DAW.
Cheers, Carl
-
Carl Edlund Anderson -
Charlie -
David Weisinger